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  1. #31
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    The problem is that he uses what most trainers consider an extreme version of 'negative' reinforcement. And the current view is that positive reinforcement is more useful, more responsible for both the human and the animal, and less likely to be a hazard or a means of abuse by either ignorance or malicious intent. Worst case, it doesn't work. But it doesn't traumatise the animal or put the human in danger, ya know?
    Yea I get that.

    I actually had listened to a program about the domestication of people...and it feels kinda skeevy to even think about what we do to animals, or children, just so that they fit in. And we don't think that we are harming them by shaming them and stuff....but we are.

    [/quote]His methods...don't offer that guarantee, that safety net as such. While they are effective when used in an incredibly precise way, it's kind of like using a katana to slice vegetables, in many cases. The exception being aggressive dogs, as their trust level and sense of hierarchy no longer depends on cooperation but on survival instincts. Kind of like with criminals - either you have a firm hand or you get eaten alive. Only once you gain some of their trust through consistent, firm, yet fair leadership can you reincorporate the methods that they got desensitised to through fear and the subsequent shielding they do to keep all influences out.

    But with normal people - and normal dogs...there is no need for that.[/quote]

    I dunno. He seems like he talks about energy a lot. I get what you mean....about the aggressive dogs....but I have used some of his techniques...the right way...and it doesn't emotionally/mentally scar her (my dog). He teaches his stuff...in like a spiritual/neutral way...I mean..I think he even uses the word energy like at least every episode. lol That's why I just think that people misinterpret what he's saying.

    Come to think of it...I didn't think he used negative reinforcement...Maybe I just haven't seen those episodes....?

    I thought he just redirects energy and focus....can you explain maybe?

    The Chieftains power in the wrong hands...or even just in incompetent hands is..yeah - especially in the extreme way Cesar wields it. It is an antiquated way of working, to our modern view. And it does not foster cooperation out of the willingness to meet in the middle between the animal and human - it is firmly putting the human in charge and using their intelligence and understanding - in some cases ABUSING it, to use the dogs instincts and pack mentality against it in order to force it to do what you like. Aka, it does not get a choice. And that flies against what many animal trainers believe in - that animal training and animal-human cooperation should be a mutually beneficial and consensual situation.
    I think I understand what you are getting at here...but I mean...we call them pet owners for a reason. I think this is where dogs and cats differ the most I think. Dogs are a pack animal...they want to please the pack leader...that IS what's beneficial to them and that's why they consent. Cats....well...you know me and cats...lol...I still don't get them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    The Millan technique is designed to teach dogs about hierarchy and respect - to show them who's boss. He can do that to a pit bull or rotty puppy all he wants. But my puppy was already aware of hierarchy.
    The guy really shouldn't be doing that to ppl's dogs though. >.>

    Poor pup
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  2. #32
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    I don't dislike a dog based on its size but rather how annoying it is

  3. #33
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Yea I get that.

    I actually had listened to a program about the domestication of people...and it feels kinda skeevy to even think about what we do to animals, or children, just so that they fit in. And we don't think that we are harming them by shaming them and stuff....but we are.


    I dunno. He seems like he talks about energy a lot. I get what you mean....about the aggressive dogs....but I have used some of his techniques...the right way...and it doesn't emotionally/mentally scar her (my dog). He teaches his stuff...in like a spiritual/neutral way...I mean..I think he even uses the word energy like at least every episode. lol That's why I just think that people misinterpret what he's saying.

    Come to think of it...I didn't think he used negative reinforcement...Maybe I just haven't seen those episodes....?

    I thought he just redirects energy and focus....can you explain maybe?



    I think I understand what you are getting at here...but I mean...we call them pet owners for a reason. I think this is where dogs and cats differ the most I think. Dogs are a pack animal...they want to please the pack leader...that IS what's beneficial to them and that's why they consent. Cats....well...you know me and cats...lol...I still don't get them.
    Cats just don't understand what hierarchy means as its foreign to them
    They just go 'dude, what's your problem?'
    It also means they are on their own though..if 5 cats are sitting near each other and a big mean dog goes to one of the cats...the rest just watches the interaction and only deals with the dog if it threatens them. That cat is on its own.

    Im aware that dogs feel safer in a pack with a clear leader. Im not arguing to deny them that...Im just saying that I don't agree with the way in which that leadership is established in his case. Honey vs vinegar, really. Vinegar is fine for when speed and efficiency is essential as you need to fall in line quickly to get something done that is vital to the group. I prefer honey for when there isn't an outside evil to combat or goal to obtain that enforces our bond naturally during down time when boredom kicks in and people get snippy though.

    If you re interested in comparing techniques though you should research a british lady called Victoria. She did her show on...Animal Planet, I think, to compete with Cesars National Geographic show and their philosophy on how to train dogs is...very different, but they get similar results and she too preaches leadership as you are right, that is what a dog requires to feel safe. Hers is clearly more...technique oriented vs his instinctual approach, and focuses on drawing boundaries in a way that communicates to the animal in a non-fearful way that this behaviour is not acceptable, as well as positive reinforcement to get the dog to try something new and train a new behaviour that would be beneficial to the owners and the dog. Otoh, she would not take the risk he does with aggressive dogs, and rightly so, with her techniques. I wish he would do the same or at least teach caution to those using his technique with animals vulnerable to abuse aka young, timid, senior and phobic animals. In that field, her techniques really do shine, I feel.
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  4. #34
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Small dogs are annoying because they are either yippy or terrified of everything, like when you turn on the microwave. I worry about them biting me, sometimes.

    Large dogs seem like gentle giants, and have more mellow, quieter personalities. They seem loyal, not loud. I like Irish Wolfhounds, especially.

    Small dogs just seem like perpetual babies to me. I don't like babies.
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  5. #35
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    Yesterday I saw a woman walking her chihuahua through an airport - the thing strutted around like a miniature wolf. It then proceeded to excrete a line of doo doo droplets all over the carpet as its owner shuffled around in a circle, methodically picking each little nugget up.

    I thought it was funny and oddly more delightful than other instances of small, sobbing dogs being jammed in portable cubbyholes.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    The Millan technique is designed to teach dogs about hierarchy and respect - to show them who's boss.
    This is why his methods can be seen as out-dated. Human should not be member or the heard, only dogs should be part of the herd. Also, there's no strict hierarchy, as it changes with the situtation. For example, when tracking game, the best tracker of the herd takes the lead and other follow. I'll try to find some sources when I'm not on mobile.
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  7. #37
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    Default the new work of dogs

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    I like dogs and cats. I don't own any dogs, though. Maybe its age, but I find myself getting more irritated by neurotic behavior in pets (especially in dogs since it is more disruptive and therefore visible to people besides the owner) Often the behaviors and neuroses are primarily a function of the way that dog has been treated by people. Thus, I don't feel hate toward an animal, but displeasure about what people have done, the lack of awareness, and the limits of psychological understanding and wherewithal when it comes to rehabilitating neurotic behavior.

    Hopefully this doesn't sound like I consider all people with an imperfectly behaved pet a failure deserving of scorn. I reserve that for animal abusers. Bad behavior in a pet doesn't equate to an owner not loving or caring about the animal. And I have so much sympathy for homeless animals that have been surrendered and so much respect for the people, who with love and awareness, try to rehabilitate animals with behavior problems. But the truth is that a lot of animal neuroses can be traced to our human expectations, attitudes and demands.

    Even before The Dog Whisperer phenomenon, I was interested in dog psychology. I liked books by Dr. Nicholas Dodman which first introduced me to the principles of dog psychology and showed the depth and meaning behind many common behavior problems.

    And I found The New Work of Dogs by Jon Katz (!) to be especially important. He talks about how more and more in our modern world the job of dogs is shifting (from traditional roles: herding, hunting, guard) towards providing whatever emotional nourishment a particular individual happens to be needing at that time. This expectation, and the way humans often express it, is frequently at odds with dog's natural psychology often leading to neurosis in the animal and frustration in people. I don't mean that dogs cannot enrich our emotional lives, they most certainly do. (I know someone who is currently attempting to get a dog trained and certified as a psychological service dog.) But I do believe that more people need to be aware and take the mental health of their pet seriously. I know its not easy, but no one is forced to have a pet, and it is worth the work. The owner's mental health and that of their pet are bound up in each other. Dogs are living creatures, and I don't think they are hateful, they have psychological needs and limitations, kind of like us. I take that very seriously and wish more people did, too.
    Reposting from an old thread. I think that smaller dogs are more likely to have to take on the task that I have bolded.
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  8. #38
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    Smaller working breeds aren't nearly as annoying (to me at least).

    Grew up with Jack Russell Terriers. Luckily they were bread to hunt and not sit around looking good.

    Also like some of the smaller herding dogs. I'll probably get a corgi eventually.

    Corgi's are a little different though, medium dog with small dog legs.

  9. #39
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    Reposting from an old thread. I think that smaller dogs are more likely to have to take on the task that I have bolded.
    I strongly suspect my mom got a yippy-afraid-of-everything-floor-shitting Bichon as part of Empty Nest Syndrome. Apparently that dog eats duck because the stomach is too delicate for anything else! Duck! A dog gets fed duck regularly!
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  10. #40
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I strongly suspect my mom got a yippy-afraid-of-everything-floor-shitting Bichon as part of Empty Nest Syndrome. Apparently that dog eats duck because the stomach is too delicate for anything else! Duck! A dog gets fed duck regularly!
    My kitty gets venison ( and green peas)....otherwise she gets chronic itching and irritable bowel syndrome...to the point where it would kill her. Food allergies. And popular, cheaper brands often contain all types of meat that aren't too pricy to put in there, along with stuff to make cats like it which aint exactly that good for kitty. Only way to know for sure her allergies won't flare up is use meat they wouldn't bother putting in there coz its too expensive
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