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  1. #21
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chanaynay View Post
    Companionship and love is useless?
    Apparently.



    *goes and snuggles her hand-raised adorably clueless but utterly charismatic and purry kitty*
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  2. #22
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    *goes and snuggles her hand-raised adorably clueless but utterly charismatic and purry kitty*
    *snuggles his 13" conniving but cuddly beagle*
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  3. #23
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    I wouldn't call myself a small dog hater, but I have disliked some small dogs in the past for being very high-strung and untrained or poorly trained. My best friend in elementary school had a Yorkie that was so anxious, if you as much as said "hi" to it, it would pee on the floor. I think your vet's a dick, though. As for the postman, it's not fair of an owner to let its pet get in other people's space without checking with them first. Sometimes pet owners who really dote on their pets - a category many small dog owners fall into - seem to feel like it's their God-given right for you to worship their pet as much as they do.

  4. #24
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    * Small dogs tend to be yappy. This is often an overcompensation for their size. It's about bluffing you're more vicious than you look, in order to not end up on the bottom rank of the hierarchy. That and many of them have been specifically bred to be watch dogs - the way @cafe uses her dog - not guard dogs, which is where their yappy nature is put to good use

    * Small dogs tend to be more ill-mannered due to pampering. Small dogs often look 'adorable' and physically have those really big eyes in a small smooshy face which triggers our nurturing side. It's a little trick Mother Nature uses to make sure we take care of our infants instead of eat it. It's basically a young animals defense mechanism in guilt tripping adults to take care of. It's better known as the 'D'awwwwwwwwwww'- effect you also see in kittens, bunnies, etc. Unfortunately, this leads to people not being able to say no to adult dogs who of course manipulate the situation the way any spoiled brat would. Add to that the smaller size and the fact that it doesn't have that big an impact when they 'misbehave' and yeah..you can end up with a seriously spoiled brat. It's kind of like how people will let a kitten bite their hands and feet as it doesn't hurt that much, then put down the cat for 'being aggressive' aka doing what it was taught when its adult coz then it fucking hurts.

    * Men especially feel ridiculous holding the leash of a walking 'dust ruffle' (common nick name name for a Shi Tsu, Laso or York terrier at my parents place), ime. Even more so when it's their gf's dog. They prefer a dog who looks and can be threatening as they value those aspects in themselves or want them projected onto themselves. You see the same kind of projection in men who will adopt a male dominant pit bull, refuse to neuter him coz they over identify with their dog, and then have their spouse or girlfriend live in terror and under the rule of said dog as he considers him above her in the hierarchy and she is to listen to him - and get pissed when you suggest that the dog would be a lot happier without that sex drive he aint allowed to use. But you see the same with women who value 'being strong' and therefore consider having a little pooch too girly which is a stereotype they don't care to associate with - and the fact that Paris Hilton introduced the concept of Purse Pooches doesn't help with that disdain for little dogs that can't do anything for themselves.

    * Lastly, toy dogs are sheerly for 'pet' purposes in many people's eyes. They're like a living doll, cute, adorable, and entertaining - and often get pampered in that way. It is easier to...take big dogs with 'serious jobs' more..well, seriously, I guess. The same seems true in human society, after all. Some entertainers may make ten times what a CEO makes, but most people will automatically consider the CEO top dog. An entertainer is after all..well, just an entertainer. A CEO concerns himself with serious business, supposedly. Starting a business is courageous, can be reckless, but is considered a risk worth taking and praised in society. Pursuing a career as an artist otoh is often considered frivolous or code for 'lazy' or 'floundering' as well as living in Lala land. The same rules for respect appear to be true for toy dogs vs work dogs.
    These fascinate me because they would read just as coherently if all references to dogs were replaced with human beings, which you get into in the last bullet point. Small dogs with these flaws evoke human qualities that we don't respect. That is, the hate potentially can be the other side of the anthropomorphizing coin, on the "heads" side of which are people who treat their purse dogs like children.

    I'd rather have a cat, which is probably why I like dogs closer to their size. I like a pet that I can hold. But small dogs also seem easier to keep clean than big ones, and certainly to transport. I'd go for one that is quieter and gentler - they do exist. The King Charles Spaniel is one example of a very mellow breed, if you're into breeds. Really, the cat or dog for me might not look how I expected them to because the most important thing to me when looking for a pet is to give a loving home to a friend I made, and the click of compatibility you feel with the right animal isn't predictable by looks alone, but this thread is about size preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chanaynay View Post
    Companionship and love is useless?
    Yeah, I'm in this camp. *misses my spoiled kitty*
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    There you go! Are you sure you're not an ISTJ?
    Wait, what!? I'm an ISTJ and I love small dogs (over large breeds)!
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Fwiw, Cesar Milan is a controversial character in animal training/behaviorism circles. His methods have been described as antiquated and downright cruel in some cases - though he seems to be willing to take risks no other dog trainer would - like working with cases of severe aggression. And he has had a lot of success there.
    If I remember correctly, Cesar was invited to speak at some dog handling and behaviour congress here in Finland, but it caused such an uproar in local handlers (due to the said methods) that the invitation was cancelled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Small dogs tend to be more ill-mannered due to pampering.
    Raising a well behaving dog is rigorous training from day 1, through all the years you're going to be together

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Men especially feel ridiculous holding the leash of a walking 'dust ruffle'.
    I hate that. I hate men who are uncertain of their identity to the point they have need to surround themselves with dangrous things (fast cars, motocycles, weapons, etc). Here's a picture of me and our Lancashire Heeler(it weights about 6kg or 13lbs)!
    stellasyli.jpg

    I personally like this breed a lot, (It's not recognized as a breed in every country, but here it is). The fur is straight and thick, easy to keep clean. They are muscular and have no excessive skin. They are naturally quite playful but saucy when needed.

    Last fall we went to visit Rome in Italy and noticed an interesting twist in how people treat dogs. They are allowed to go to shops and cafeteria with others, but on the other hand almost all the dogs we saw seemed to suffer from bad hips. We visited couple of dog accessory stores and were surprised to see that almost half the store was about fancy clothing while toy section was almost non-existent. Here in Finland we can't take dogs with us almost anywhere (some busses allow it while trains have separate compartment for pets), but shopping malls, stores, restaurants, etc are strictly off-limit. However, there are extensive selection of toys, training equipment and food for dogs in almost any shopping mall or grocery store.
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
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  7. #27
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Many reasons

    I have known 2 dogs (not my own) that are small, that I've liked. Ever.

    I don't like small dogs in general cause of their owners. I don't like the materialistic way people carry them around like an accessory. As if the dog is an object. And I especially don't like that they nip and bark for no reason.

    If you're gonna get a dog, train the dog.

    When I see a dog with bad manners, it just reminds me how lazy and stupid people actually are.

    I also have been bitten by small dogs, cause they're nervous. I find nervousness in a dog to be annoying.

    That is what Cesar teaches btws....that they're nervous...and he's right. They bark out of fear.

    What ever that guy did to your pup in the OP...he did it wrong. Dogs have a different mentality then us, and they have a hierarchy that you need to understand before you get a dog....or the dog will growl at you if you're by their food, they will growl at you if you don't give them their toy, and they wont respect you.

    So really...it's the lack of respect that I see that the dog doesn't have. And it's because someone thought it was cute, and didn't think about the dog's happiness or the surrounding people.

    Also I go to the park with my dog and every SINGLE TIME, all the little ass dogs...hump my dog.

    If they have been domesticated properly then I have no problem with any dog. If they haven't then I don't hate the dog...the dog is innocent, I hate the owner.

    And it is hate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Fwiw, Cesar Milan is a controversial character in animal training/behaviorism circles. His methods have been described as antiquated and downright cruel in some cases - though he seems to be willing to take risks no other dog trainer would - like working with cases of severe aggression. And he has had a lot of success there.

    The most vital point of critique he gets however is that while his techniques may work for him - they aren't for laymen to use. In the hands of a laymen or an amateur, they are downright dangerous and harmful to both humans and dogs. And unfortunately, due to his show, many people who don't know what they're doing copy him. I worked closely with vets for a couple of years and took some animal behaviour classes myself, with a focus on felines - lemme tell you that vets should stick to their specialty or get schooling. I remember one of our vets not even realising he had to test the urine of a cat who was avoiding their litter tray for crystals or infection and just sending the customer home with a feliway - a band aid and ineffective without treatment either physical or behavioral. That was the extent of his interest and expertise in animal behaviour. He was an amazing animal dentist and radiologist though - his field of expertise.
    Yea, I mean I don't know about all the controversy. I have no idea what the guy does off the camera. But I don't think people understand his intent. The way it comes across to me when he's talking, it sounds more like he's getting into the dog's mentality and trying to get to the root of the problem. Where people are just trying to find a quick fix....which doesn't work. Just my opinion though.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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  8. #28
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    What ever that guy did to your pup in the OP...he did it wrong. Dogs have a different mentality then us, and they have a hierarchy that you need to understand before you get a dog....or the dog will growl at you if you're by their food, they will growl at you if you don't give them their toy, and they wont respect you.
    The Millan technique is designed to teach dogs about hierarchy and respect - to show them who's boss. He can do that to a pit bull or rotty puppy all he wants. But my puppy was already aware of hierarchy.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  9. #29
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Many reasons

    I have known 2 dogs (not my own) that are small, that I've liked. Ever.

    I don't like small dogs in general cause of their owners. I don't like the materialistic way people carry them around like an accessory. As if the dog is an object. And I especially don't like that they nip and bark for no reason.

    If you're gonna get a dog, train the dog.

    When I see a dog with bad manners, it just reminds me how lazy and stupid people actually are.

    I also have been bitten by small dogs, cause they're nervous. I find nervousness in a dog to be annoying.

    That is what Cesar teaches btws....that they're nervous...and he's right. They bark out of fear.

    What ever that guy did to your pup in the OP...he did it wrong. Dogs have a different mentality then us, and they have a hierarchy that you need to understand before you get a dog....or the dog will growl at you if you're by their food, they will growl at you if you don't give them their toy, and they wont respect you.

    So really...it's the lack of respect that I see that the dog doesn't have. And it's because someone thought it was cute, and didn't think about the dog's happiness or the surrounding people.

    Also I go to the park with my dog and every SINGLE TIME, all the little ass dogs...hump my dog.

    If they have been domesticated properly then I have no problem with any dog. If they haven't then I don't hate the dog...the dog is innocent, I hate the owner.

    And it is hate.



    Yea, I mean I don't know about all the controversy. I have no idea what the guy does off the camera. But I don't think people understand his intent. The way it comes across to me when he's talking, it sounds more like he's getting into the dog's mentality and trying to get to the root of the problem. Where people are just trying to find a quick fix....which doesn't work. Just my opinion though.

    The problem is that he uses what most trainers consider an extreme version of 'negative' reinforcement - along with 'positive' punishment. These are the exact two techniques that most animal behaviourists will avoid in favour of positive reinforcement if at all possible. They can be highly effective and have their place for sure, but to rely on especially positive punishment is old fashioned and, as experience teaches, least effective in most cases, while holding the biggest potential for being harmful to the animal. Positive reinforcement is preferred and used almost solely especially in training, though in correcting behavioral problems, you use all of the techniques (and some others) mentioned above, depending on what the situation calls for. Still, you prioritise positive reinforcement if it is an option over the others, due to the safety issues and positive associations it invokes.

    The current view is that positive reinforcement is more useful, more responsible for both the human and the animal, and less likely to be a hazard or a means of abuse by either ignorance or malicious intent. Worst case, it doesn't work. But it doesn't traumatise the animal or put the human in danger, ya know?

    Cesars methods...don't offer that guarantee, that safety net as such. While they are effective when used in an incredibly precise way, it's kind of like using a katana to slice vegetables, in many cases. The exception being aggressive dogs, as their trust level and sense of hierarchy no longer depends on cooperation but on survival instincts. Kind of like with criminals - either you have a firm hand or you get eaten alive. Only once you gain some of their trust through consistent, firm, yet fair leadership can you reincorporate the methods that they got desensitised to through fear and the subsequent shielding they do to keep all influences out.

    But with normal people - and normal dogs...there is no need for that. Granted, it works - kind of like a fair tribal chieftain works just as well and in some cases better than a democracy. But that chieftain structure works best with small groups who are in need of strong, direct and immediate leadership coz they are surrounded by hazardous living circumstances - iow, an outside force/evil/obstacle that unites the tribe under that leader - that keeps them from bickering amongst each other and abuse social politics which that system is highly susceptible to.

    The Chieftains power in the wrong hands...or even just in incompetent hands is..yeah - especially in the extreme way Cesar wields it. It is an antiquated way of working, to our modern view. And it does not foster cooperation out of the willingness to meet in the middle between the animal and human - it is firmly putting the human in charge and using their intelligence and understanding of the animal - in some cases ABUSING it, to use the dogs instincts and pack mentality against it in order to force it to do what you like - even if it causes negative associations and emotions such as fear. Aka, it does not get a choice, it gets cajoled. And while some animals need this 'kick' as such, it's harmful to many others. Not to mention that it flies against what many animal trainers believe in - that animal training and animal-human cooperation should be a mutually beneficial and consensual situation.

    From what Ive seen, Cesar is a very benevolent Chieftain/Tyrant. He knows exactly how to balance that power and how not to abuse it. His followers are almost guaranteed not be that experienced, that wise or that competent. I still cannot agree with it though. I prefer being a benevolent leader and giving the dog the choice and time to figure out why it is beneficial to follow me over a benevolent tyrant who gives the animal no choice. I'd only use the latter with a dog who has learned how to use social scare tactics to stage a coup and usurp his owners to become the chieftain and only understands that kind of harsh communication and a display of strength. A dog that pretty much turned into the canine variant of a criminal. And to effectively rehabilitate him and resensitize him to the benevolent leader style of working, I might meet him on his own turf the way Cesar does, but only as a last resort.
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    I don't agree with people who treat dogs like they are a human child and go with them everywhere and expect everyone else to conform to their way of thinking.
    I guess you wouldn't have approved of taking my dog to class in college.

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