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  1. #41
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I actually like big houses, but I like entertainment more; I'd prefer disposable income if I had to choose between them. On the other hand, I get a lot of utility out of privacy (apartment walls are too thin) and big yards full of trees (living amongst steel and concrete would be too depressing for me), so I would pick a small house over an apartment any day.
    Me, too. God save me from ever having to live in an apartment again. I'm now renting a small house and have a roommate, and our bills are pretty low. If I had a bit more income, though, I'd be happy to have an 8-room house. Nothing fancy, but big enough that I could have a largish, dedicated music room, and some storage space/guest room. I could never live in just a couple of rooms. I like having a bit of uncluttered space.
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  2. #42
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    On the other hand, I get a lot of utility out of privacy (apartment walls are too thin) and big yards full of trees (living amongst steel and concrete would be too depressing for me), so I would pick a small house over an apartment any day.
    There is something to be said for privacy. I've had some very bad neighbors in the past when living in an apartment. One used to do carpentry projects on their porch at 3am. There was another one who was worse - always yelling - and then once when I forgot to turn my alarm clock off and went away for the weekend, they turned off power for the entire building and blamed it on us - saying that we did it!! Even in a house though, there can be problems with noise. Our next door neighbor has a very loud barking dog that drives me up the wall. Then there are the other neighbors who took a trip to Japan and forgot to turn off their outside speakers. After two weeks, I finally walked over there and disconnected the wires in a slight fit of rage.

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  3. #43
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I am happiest with simplicity. My definition of simplicity, meaning comfortable but not excessive. Occasionally I'll admire lavish things from a far but I wouldn't actually want to have them. I admire them best from a far. Sort of like a Monet painting.... You may admire and appreciate one but would you really want to own one? Not really. That would be overload. I also know I'm different from the norm in that I just don't care about material possessions, fads, and keeping up with the Jonses like other people I know do. Perhaps I have ADD but owning lavish possessions lose their appeal to me after about a month or two unless they are extremely functional in a practical way in my life.

    Not to mention that I'd go crazy with a lot of clutter. Being a collector has never appealed to me. I like feeling and being "lighter" than that and I definitely despise the idea of being a financial, mental or physical slave to material possessions or the Joneses.

    However for some unknown reason, whenever I tell people (esp men) this, they don't believe me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Me, too. God save me from ever having to live in an apartment again. I'm now renting a small house and have a roommate, and our bills are pretty low. If I had a bit more income, though, I'd be happy to have an 8-room house. Nothing fancy, but big enough that I could have a largish, dedicated music room, and some storage space/guest room. I could never live in just a couple of rooms. I like having a bit of uncluttered space.
    My main solution to clutter is minimalism.

    I agree that the part about living near other people sucks. A couple nights ago I was kept awake by someone loudly playing a sermon of all things. But like I said about the cottage, even if I lived isolated from others, I'd rather have more money to spare for a small place than a big place for less money.
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  4. #44
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post

    My main solution to clutter is minimalism.

    I agree that the part about living near other people sucks. A couple nights ago I was kept awake by someone loudly playing a sermon of all things. But like I said about the cottage, even if I lived isolated from others, I'd rather have more money to spare for a small place than a big place for less money.
    Yeah, I don't have just a ton of stuff, but nor am I a true minimalist. I'm not constantly acquiring stuff, but the stuff I do have, I use and want to keep. And I don't want to have to pile it up in places because I don't have enough space. I like a bit of variety in my life, too, and would be kind of depressed wearing the same five shirts all the time, or not having any cds, dvds or books. I lived in a small apartment in NYC with a roommate, and there was NO storage space, and it was miserable for me.

    I think the solution can be somewhere in the middle, though. A person can want a decent-sized house, but not a house that is too much for their income. There can be a middle ground between a tiny cottage and a giant suburban mini-mansion. I mean, if a small cottage makes you happy, that's great--but I don't think that a cottage would make everyone happy, nor is it necessary inherently more virtuous than a slightly larger one-story home with a few more rooms.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The answer probably makes more sense if you also won't have kids, because I understand this idea is less realistic for those with children, though the concept is still applicable, it just starts at a much higher bar.

    Also, how many people do you think have similar thoughts to mine? Am I actually pretty common, or really anomalous?
    I also won't have kids, and I agree with you. I want to live minimally. I don't like material "stuff" all that much. Basic necessities + computer. I think this type of mindset is growing.
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  6. #46
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Smile Cluttering Up or Relaxing Down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    My main solution to clutter is minimalism.
    I love clutter. I keep my clutter to a maximum. At school they were always telling me I had the untidiest desk and the untidiest locker. And at work they would tell me I had the untidiest desk. In fact next to me was a clear desk maven who would end every day with a completely clear desk.

    The clear desk movement is like a religious belief of those who are boy scouts in their hearts. Bless their little white socks and their toilet training.

    Clutter causes panic in the retentive, but clutter allows me to relax and be expansive - who knows what I might find?

    There are now whole books devoted to clearing up clutter and leading a clutter free life. But a life without clutter is not the slightest bit free. Freedom to clutter should be one of our basic freedoms. But it is teachers, controllers, parents and sergeants who want to put an end to clutter, all so they can have power over us.

    But it is the uniformity of print that leads to the hatred of clutter. And as we move into etext and all of the electronic media from the cell phone to ipad 2, we shall start to take clutter for granted and we will abandon the pejorative word 'clutter' and call it the glorious efflorescence of forms - a new flowering of a hundred different forms of glorious clutter.

  7. #47
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm pretty new to this whole thing of living alone in an apartment and having a job. I'm certainly discontented with my current situation and I've been thinking a lot about what to aim for. If I can progress, how would I rather be living than now?

    As I look at what appears to be the norm for American ambitions, I see a lot of things that I don't like. What's really struck me are these two things: The enormity of the houses and the quantity of vehicles. You can add some other things, like the size of the yards, or the newness or gas consumption of said vehicles. What the result in that bothers me so much, is a total consumption of income. It seems to me that however large a person's or couple's income is, they will always expand the amount they invest in home and vehicle to scale. There are a few other kinds of massive investments, like property that isn't primary residence, various subscriptions to services, and so forth that strike me in a similar manner, but the house and vehicle is the most standard thing.

    My INTJ brother and his SO live in Harrisburg like me and are making a combined income of at least $80,000 a year. I don't know exactly what it is, but it is at the very minimum that much ($100,000 would not surprise me). They are only two people and will not have children. But the have a house with 8 rooms, attic and basement, a decently sized yard with driveway and shed. While one has a job from home and the other has a job that can be reached by bike or bus, they own three automobiles, one of which is a titanic gas guzzling van. The best thing they do with their money is invest it in a huge plot of land in northern NY where they have been slowly turning virtual wilderness into a place with a house. That could potentially be really cool, but it's a big investment and a distant goal.

    They are very anxious about money. They always act strapped for cash. I look at this, and I think about what it would be like if I were making $80,000 a year while still living in this apartment without a car. I'd have an absurd amount of disposable income, and you know what? I think I'd be happier than they are.

    Now, I don't want to stay like this forever, especially since I want a spouse and even I think this place is way too tiny for two people. Also, for two people to have jobs that pay like that without even one car is pretty rare. But still, I see no reason to get anything more than a single bedroom apartment and one tiny, high gas mileage car, especially considering I probably won't have children (very important point). And even two people living in those conditions here or in Pittsburgh would still have a lot of disposable income at $80,000 to $100,000 annually. And it wouldn't stop there. I don't know how large our income would have to become before I'd be interested in making those investments, because really, would I appreciate passively having a big home, or a big yard, or the convenience of multiple cars, as much as I would appreciate all of that disposable income?

    Think about it. Never again would I have to think about buying some food and suddenly changing my mind because its frivolous. I could have acai smoothies and lobster every damn day if I wanted. I could make my place an oven in the winter and freezer in the summer. I could travel to another country on a whim. And emergencies wouldn't seem so scary anymore, because I'd probably have the money to cover it. And there's just freedom that nagging question of whether or not you can make your recurring payments and how much will be left over. Wherever that point is, I'd sooner aspire to living like that than getting out of a small apartment.

    I think people are missing out on a lot of indulgences in life this way. I think people are sort of imprisoning themselves in their own massive investments. The more I think about this, the better an idea it sounds like. The main question in it for me is if I can find an SO would be comfortable with it the way I am, or if I get stuck with someone who's into that whole big house, three car thing.

    If you actually read this far, what do you think? Are you feeling me or do you still side with the more conventional view. The answer probably makes more sense if you also won't have kids, because I understand this idea is less realistic for those with children, though the concept is still applicable, it just starts at a much higher bar.

    Also, how many people do you think have similar thoughts to mine? Am I actually pretty common, or really anomalous?
    I am with you here! In my dream life, I am debt free and have little chance of acquiring debt, since there is so much left over. The only debt I would have might be a house and a low payment car. I would be investing leftover money wisely, so that my money would be making money for me. (Perhaps once one house is paid off, I would rent that out or sell when the market is good...) I would have few financial commitments, (AKA, the 3 cars, and the massive house with all of it's things that I can't afford to maintain.) And beyond that me, (and perhaps my future family) would be able to do whatever the hell we wanted. My kids would have to start working at a certain age to pay for their own stuff. I refuse to go into debt over Christmas, or barbecues, or a larger TV, or one too many ipods, or patio furtniture, or jewelery. I want to pay for everything in full. If I can't pay in full and have plenty left over, then I don't want it.

    Right now, I live in a bright warm trailer and don't pay much for rent, and I have a toyota yaris 2 door hatchback and a 2 mile commute to work, and make a very good income. All kinds of leftover money to throw at debt, and I feel that life is very luxurious this way. The only thing that I would change in the near future is to maybe pay a slightly higher rent and get a cuter apartment and live by myself. (Instead of a roommate.) I may go with the financially smarter plan and continue to pay little rent until I make a big dent in my debt and then start thinking about a small house, OR, stay here for a few years, go into slightly more debt, become an NP, be making a lot more money, and then continue on with the plan. There's nothing more refreshing to me than thinking about a life of financial freedom, (rather than having to think about all the things that I have to pay for in return for things that I don't really need.)
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  8. #48
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    Why the limitations? Why can't we have it all? Tis possible, no?

    You're throwing your money away, if you're renting and probably making some other guy rich (eventually). Where's the logic in that? So what, you have more disposable income initially when you rent, but you're obviously not looking at the long-term. You're throwing money away. Money that adds up to a lot of money over the years and you'll have nothing to show for it. Money that if strategically invested in property, could be making you more money and very rich. So initially, no you're not going to have a lot of disposable income, if you go that route.

    If I were you, I'd find a low cost of living area, buy a house and move there. Maybe buy some rental property too while you're at it. Something to be proud of and that would allow you to retire early.

    I don't understand your logic there about all of your disposable income. Invest.

  9. #49
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Why the limitations? Why can't we have it all? Tis possible, no?

    You're throwing your money away, if you're renting and probably making some other guy rich (eventually). Where's the logic in that? So what, you have more disposable income initially when you rent, but you're obviously not looking at the long-term. You're throwing money away. Money that adds up to a lot of money over the years. Money that if strategically invested in property or some other investment, could be making you money and very rich. So initially, no you're not going to have a lot of disposable income.

    Where I live, you get quite a lot of home for your money and it's a wise investment. If I were you, I'd find a low cost of living area, buy a house and move there. Maybe buy some rental property too while you're at it. Something to be proud of and allow you to retire early.
    For me, a mortgage would cost significantly more than the rent I'm paying, and I have a lot of higher interest debt that I can throw a few hundred extra at every month by not owning a house- so, the bigger goal is to remove the debt. (I don't think that giving hundreds towards debt every month is "obviously throwing money away to have disposable income" or "not looking ahead to the long term." Quite the opposite.) (Though, the idea of buying a small house tends to hang out in my near vision all the time.) I probably won't leave the area since the quality of life here is really good (excellent, really.) (Yes, it's a trailer in a nice location, difficult to picture, probably.) I wouldn't want to sacrifice my happiness with the location.

    If I do not go back to school, it seems that my large school debt will be paid off in about 5 years. If I do go back to school, I would make significantly more and maybe take a couple extra years to pay it off.

    (Not really sure if your post was towards me or the OP, came after mine, so I thought it was mine, but now it's starting to look more like it was towards the OP. Oh well! Like this topic anyway!)
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

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  10. #50
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Why the limitations? Why can't we have it all? Tis possible, no?
    Possible and probable are two different things, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    You're throwing your money away, if you're renting and probably making some other guy rich (eventually).
    Awesome, then we have at least two winners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Where's the logic in that? So what, you have more disposable income initially when you rent, but you're obviously not looking at the long-term. You're throwing money away.
    How?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Money that adds up to a lot of money over the years and you'll have nothing to show for it.
    I'll enjoy the experience I have with that disposable income more than I would throwing it into a big house and a bunch of cars. That is what I will know, what I will experience. Having something to show doesn't particularly concern me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Money that if strategically invested in property, could be making you more money and very rich. So initially, no you're not going to have a lot of disposable income, if you go that route.
    What are you suggesting? Are you talking about me eventually flipping my house, selling it off to someone else for higher? Or are you suggesting I actually start investing in other property that I rent to other people, or what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    If I were you, I'd find a low cost of living area, buy a house and move there.
    If I could find a house as cheap as a two bedroom apartment here that was within reasonable distance of well-paying job opportunity, I'd see no reason not to do that. But it comes down to the amount I'm spending and what I'm earning. The money comes first, so if that arrangement isn't equally thrifty, I'll stick with the smaller place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    Maybe buy some rental property too while you're at it. Something to be proud of and that would allow you to retire early.
    Proud of? Maybe it's something you'd be proud of. I don't really care. It's not appealing enough to me to put on some financial shackles for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd Girl View Post
    I don't understand your logic there about all of your disposable income. Invest.
    I think investment has been presented as a lot better than it actually turns out for a lot of people.

    However, I think the deeper reason for your confusion is that there's a more subjective difference in our desires, and perhaps you are trying to tack it as an objective problem.
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