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  1. #1
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    Lightbulb Do we have the right to manipulate and destory nature?

    I am not trying to push any type of political anything here. I want to ask a fundamental question about the relationship between humans and nature.
    I want anyone reading this to really think about what we have done as a species to nature. It obviously stands apart from anything else as unique to humans and appalling. We have exploited and manipulated nature to the point of the planet being in a state of emergency right now. When I speak of the planet I am talking of the earth as a singular organism. We are part of this. Our environments are toxic: the air, the water, the food. Everything is processed, tampered with and degraded for the sake of material satisfaction and our contemporary, overstimulated culture. What we have done for our benefit at the cost of destroying ecosystems is unbearable to think about. Not only has it cost the lives of countless animals and humans alike, we are annihilating EVERYTHING that matters. With modern, modified food have come the multitude of modern medical problems (One of countless examples). This is serious because fundamentally we are animals. We have certain needs: food, shelter, sex/love ALL of these things have been deeply, horribly affected by us not being connected with nature. We are part of it. We are not above it. It is everything. Next time you are outside, look at the infrastructure man has built, next to nature. Nature (read:life) grows through the cracks in the cement and birds chirp in the trees next to the factories we have built. That sharp contrast is unnerving.

    What inside of us lets us do this to our world? I just cannot comprehend WHY millions have deemed it o.k. to have such disregard for the thing that brought them into this world, without it you would have nothing. Nature is the ultimate work of art that you LIVE in. It is all around you. Going against this is to destroy yourself, the very thing you are. People have grown to hate nature, to think it disgusting and crude. To put themselves in sterile, man-made, lifeless constructions. Nature is energy, it is life.

    Our man-made world has created all of our problems. Almost everything created by man has had a short term gain and a long term, deeper disturbing consequence. People work all day at jobs they hate to come home to disconnected families who eat their processed, chemical laden and mass produced food while sitting in front of the television being fed a false reality and being subconsciously indoctrinated with symbolic brainwashing. The whole system fits together to keep everyone feeling a void in their lives and the need to keep filling it with other man-made things. The machine feeds itself.

    How can there be any genuine or truthful in a world abundant with falsehoods?

    I believe ultimately nature is more powerful than we, and could easily reclaim everything.

    Why have we evolved, or rather devolved, to be this way? Why our species?

    I know these questions are ultimately unanswerable. But why is there a deaf ear and blind eye turned towards this? Why isn't there mass outcry? Is it not hitting you over the head at this point? Has this cycle not gone on long enough? What inside of us is wanting to kill ourselves subconsciously as fast and painfully as possible?

    I urge everyone to watch this. It is simple and beautifully well put. Nothing more can be said...

    YouTube - Alan
    Watts: A Conversation with Myself - Part 1

  2. #2
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    I really don't think this general theme is unique to our species, we're just better at it than the others. Beavers and their dams change entire ecosystems on a local level, a couple billion years ago plant life "polluted" the earth's atmosphere with a corrosive gas called oxygen to the point where it changed the whole composition of the sky and dictated the direction of billions of years of evolution. Any organism on the planet would kill to have our abilities of environmental mastery.

    I've always found the naturalist ideals you have to be very bizarre, because it implies that under human supervision, our environment should never change. Ever. Which is contrary to earth's entire history, and contrary to a biological system that is inherently dynamic and requires change to function.

    With regards to general unhappiness, don't think I really have answer to that, or the ability to explain it. But it is something I have observed.



  3. #3
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    As humans gain more large-scale power over the environment, the conservation of our limited natural resources becomes more of an issue, as one would expect.

    Protecting natural resources and ecosystems might be in our best interest, but it's not always in the best interest on an individual company or industry. This is why, for instance, the oil and coal industries fund anti-global warming and anti-environmental groups.

    The 'rape and pillage' attitude kind of plays into the idea of the "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism". However this attitude is fading as the state of nature becomes more of a concern. Protestants might leave earth behind when they get Raptured up, but the rest of us have to live here for good.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I've always found the naturalist ideals you have to be very bizarre, because it implies that under human supervision, our environment should never change. Ever. Which is contrary to earth's entire history, and contrary to a biological system that is inherently dynamic and requires change to function.
    It's not that our environment should never change, but that no one wants it to be depleted in a way that would hinder human progress. Makes sense.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I really don't think this general theme is unique to our species, we're just better at it than the others. Beavers and their dams change entire ecosystems on a local level, a couple billion years ago plant life "polluted" the earth's atmosphere with a corrosive gas called oxygen to the point where it changed the whole composition of the sky and dictated the direction of billions of years of evolution. Any organism on the planet would kill to have our abilities of environmental mastery.

    I've always found the naturalist ideals you have to be very bizarre, because it implies that under human supervision, our environment should never change. Ever. Which is contrary to earth's entire history, and contrary to a biological system that is inherently dynamic and requires change to function.
    This is what I wanted to say, but I could never have laid it out that well. No other species would be expected to be a steward. All species act either from instinct or in their best interest. Our mutant intelligence just means when we do it it's bigger.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  5. #5
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    All species act either from instinct or in their best interest. Our mutant intelligence just means when we do it it's bigger.
    Which is why humans are starting to pay more attention to the state of our environment, because it's in our best interest.

  6. #6
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Yes, quite honestly.

    Things like "right" wouldn't exist without us. Things would just be, these concepts would never be discussed.

    That's the wrong question. The real question is, is it in our best interest to hurt nature? If we find that it isn't, we'll stop.

    You're preaching to the wrong person, though. I'm an old enemy of nature... when I was 7, I drew a red circle with a slash through it over a tree, and wrote "Destroy nature," while laughing a little bit. Then I wrote a green circle around a computer and wrote "Preserve Technology." It actually comforted me to write that.

    I AM that thing inside humanity that allows them to "do such things." I am progress, I am change, I am innovation. Do you dare to challenge me?

  7. #7
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I really don't think this general theme is unique to our species, we're just better at it than the others. Beavers and their dams change entire ecosystems on a local level, a couple billion years ago plant life "polluted" the earth's atmosphere with a corrosive gas called oxygen to the point where it changed the whole composition of the sky and dictated the direction of billions of years of evolution. Any organism on the planet would kill to have our abilities of environmental mastery.

    I've always found the naturalist ideals you have to be very bizarre, because it implies that under human supervision, our environment should never change. Ever. Which is contrary to earth's entire history, and contrary to a biological system that is inherently dynamic and requires change to function.

    With regards to general unhappiness, don't think I really have answer to that, or the ability to explain it. But it is something I have observed.
    This, and this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Yes, quite honestly.

    Things like "right" wouldn't exist without us. Things would just be, these concepts would never be discussed.

    That's the wrong question. The real question is, is it in our best interest to hurt nature? If we find that it isn't, we'll stop.
    Except I actually like nature and I think it's in our best interests to preserve it to a degree. Not as radically as some think, though.
    -end of thread-

  8. #8
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    This, and this:

    Except I actually like nature and I think it's in our best interests to preserve it to a degree. Not as radically as some think, though.
    Well, of course. I mean, we should try to create green technology, pollute less, save energy, etc... I'm all for that. But what I don't get are all the these people who are totally against technology/civilization and blame genetically engineered food for our ills. I guess the point is, I definitely wouldn't choose nature over technology if I were asked to make a choice. But if we can preserve both, I'm willing to work towards that.

  9. #9

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    I have no problem with people manipulating and destroying nature, except when they destroy something nice or something we need. I think the biggest fear with manipulating nature on Earth is that it took a long time to get the optimised form it is now in, and we probably have a lot we can damage and not much we can improve when it comes to making it more suitable for living creatures. We are evolved to living in it as it is, so it is good for it to stay that way. When we do things which ignore this and stuff up the system, I see it as a problem. When we destroy the magnificent or the enchanting, I see it as having no appreciation.

    When it comes to other things like terraforming Mars, I think people want to protect another planet to have something to see, but there are squillions out there, and if we can make one next to us livable and set up colonies, why not try? Like if I have the option of living on a green Mars with oxygen, I'm not really going to miss my chance to visit a red desert in a space suit. So I'm not really set on either side of the issue. I do think polluting when we don't need to and deforestation are stupid though, because it is done ignoring the obvious fact that we are biological entities, not city dwelling immortals. We still have to have the right environment to exist.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  10. #10
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Well I don't know about the rest of you, but I didn't sign any treaties with the Ents, or any other forest people of middle earth, so as far as I am concerned I can do any damn thing I please.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

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