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  1. #31
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willfrey View Post
    But against an Atlas?????
    Yea thats gonna be tough. 100 ton warmachine of the cumulated power of nature ! But together we're strong, we'll just jump that natural beast with pickaxes and hammer on his feet till it gets crazy from the ticklings
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  2. #32
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Do we have the right to say what is nature and what isn't?

    I'm kinda stuck on that, don't really feel comfortable answering this topic without feeling confident about this question.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  3. #33
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    "Rights" are artificial, human constructs born of the French Enlightenment and based on Christian values. They are not arbitrary, value-less or God-defined. Funny how most people seem to forget that.

    Therefore the only ones stopping us from strip-mining Earth are ourselves. There is no external standard to hold ourselves to.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Liminality's Avatar
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    " The problem with all the eco arguments that I'ver heard is: humans are are totally natural... what's not to be expected with what we do, how is it different than earth's history before us?...Evolution happens... all of our reactions are a part of that and whatever happens is evolution. "

    But part of human nature is the ability to reason, reason gives way to a sense of right a wrong. On one hand we're capable of destroying the world due to our ability to create and consume. What ever happens maybe a part of evolution, but if we have the ability to reason, and reason that destroying the world is bad, then the argument that our actions are just another natural change/progression in the world (evolution) makes little sense to me.

    Also like others have said: manipulating and destroying nature/evolution, whateve you want to call it, is eventually gonna end with us unable to survive, with is rather counterproductive.

    Then again who says there's any reason for anything, and so any point in trying to be 'good' or productive...that there's any product we should aim for.

    Regarding the suggestion that because obligation is a human construct and so renderd moot:

    Even if they (Rights) are human constructs, if we choose to live by them in most other aspects of life then we ought to apply it to all things.

    If you believe there's reason to object against something, and live according to a sense of right and wrong, whatever that may be, then it's just plain illogical in my eyes to say there's no reason to try and look after our world, just because obligation is somthing we made up.

    No offence meant to anyone .
    Come along Fool
    A direct hit of the senses you are disconnected
    It's not that it's bad, it's not that it's death
    It's just on the tip of your tongue, and you're so silent

  5. #35
    / nonsequitur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liminality View Post
    But part of human nature is the ability to reason, reason gives way to a sense of right a wrong. On one hand we're capable of destroying the world due to our ability to create and consume. What ever happens maybe a part of evolution, but if we have the ability to reason, and reason that destroying the world is bad, then the argument that our actions are just another natural change/progression in the world (evolution) makes little sense to me.
    No. Right and wrong are derived from values. Reasons are a posteriori justifications for those values.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liminality View Post
    Regarding the suggestion that because obligation is a human construct and so renderd moot:

    Even if they (Rights) are human constructs, if we choose to live by them in most other aspects of life then we ought to apply it to all things.

    If you believe there's reason to object against something, and live according to a sense of right and wrong, whatever that may be, then it's just plain illogical in my eyes to say there's no reason to try and look after our world, just because obligation is somthing we made up.
    I never said that obligation is a human construct, that is a straw man argument. I said that the concept of "rights" is a human construct. "Rights" imply that there is an absolute right or wrong regardless of circumstance, and is spelled out in a bureaucratic manner in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It is a specific term that has nothing to do with what is being argued here. I merely pointed out that the idea of "right" to destroy the environment is ridiculous, and that it should not be used here because there is no such "right" in the declaration. Also, I should point out that not every country signed that particular bill anyway. Therefore it is hardly "universal".

    Obligation is not the same as "rights". I am tired of the word "rights" being used in an inaccurate and context-free way by liberals who claim to be "logical" to justify their own values. Obligations are born from values. To address problems like this one it is necessary to enunciate all the values/perspectives being held instead of claiming that a particular value is universal and imposing it on other people.

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