MMA

[GarrotTheThief]

Martial arts are so super.

Bruce Lee would lose a UFC match in his weight class. Unless, I wonder, if he had time to train..........

I have to disagree with you there. Bruce Lee was benchmarked physically and no one has surpassed him on speed, agility, and strength per pound of weight.

Also, in ufc fighting it's not that realistic. When you put gloves on you disperse the pressure from the knuckle and the more skilled fighter is at a disadvantage. In real life a woman who ways 140lbs could knock out a guy who weighs 240lbs with one blow assuming she was proficient at striking with her knuckles.

It's basically like taking a needle and putting a cap on it, the needle no longer punctures paper the same way - it's just physics.

I don't recommend street fighting though or fighting ever. Freshman year in college a short little guy came up to a d1 line backer in a bar fight and smashed a beer bottle over the dues head, he was 6'8" 350lbs of muscle but the little 125lb amigo nearly took his face off with that bottle.

Fighting is dumb and inevitably results in tragedy outside of a ring/or gym.

 

[johnnyyukon]

I have to disagree with you there. Bruce Lee was benchmarked physically and no one has surpassed him on speed, agility, and strength per pound of weight.

Also, in ufc fighting it's not that realistic. When you put gloves on you disperse the pressure from the knuckle and the more skilled fighter is at a disadvantage. In real life a woman who ways 140lbs could knock out a guy who weighs 240lbs with one blow assuming she was proficient at striking with her knuckles.

It's basically like taking a needle and putting a cap on it, the needle no longer punctures paper the same way - it's just physics.

I don't recommend street fighting though or fighting ever. Freshman year in college a short little guy came up to a d1 line backer in a bar fight and smashed a beer bottle over the dues head, he was 6'8" 350lbs of muscle but the little 125lb amigo nearly took his face off with that bottle.

Fighting is dumb and inevitably results in tragedy outside of a ring/or gym.

So would you also agree that Mohammad Ali could take Mike Tyson, both in their prime?

And your second sentence is quite a bold claim. "no one." How do you know?

And I only ever mentioned a UFC match. I fail to be convinced.

You do realize the first 13 UFC fights were completely bare knuckle.

Many boxers, mma pros, and bare knuckles agree with this:

Bare knuckles hurt the most because you're being hit with unpadded bone, but MMA gloves are more likely to cause a knockout. Here's how it breaks down:

-Gloves are designed to protect the puncher's hand, not necessarily their target.

-The more padding you have, however, the more surface area you're creating and the more cushioning you're adding.

-Knockouts are not caused by hitting a hard surface, necessarily, but rather from how much energy is transfered. A knockout occures when the brain smacks into the skull at high speeds.

I have MMA gloves and sparred with it. It's no fucking joke. There is NOT much padding. Just enough to keep you from breaking your hands.

Hell, check out Wikipedia:

MMA gloves or grappling gloves are small, open-fingered gloves used in mixed martial arts bouts. They usually have around 4-6 oz of padding and are designed to provide some protection to the person wearing the glove, but leave the fingers available for grappling maneuvers such as clinch fighting and submissions.


Small, open-fingered gloves were first mandatory in Japan's Shooto promotion and were later adopted by the UFC as it developed into a regulated sport. Gloves were introduced to protect fighters' fists from injuries, as well as reduce the number of facial lacerations (and stoppages dues to cuts) that fighters experienced without gloves.

The introduction of gloves was also intended to encourage fighters to use their hands for striking to allow more captivating matches for fans. There are some similarities to the wrist-supporting, closed-thumb, broken-knuckle kempo gloves popularized by Bruce Lee's 1973 movie Enter the Dragon.

Didn't even notice the Bruce Lee reference til I copied that. But again, while knuckles CAN cause more facial lacerations, that is NOT a knockout. I got more proof if you need it.

I did however, witness an acquaintance from High School, at the time a D1 University Offensive Tackle (6'4", 270lbs) get knocked out by a little wirey dude like freaking 125lbs, much like your story. Totally believe it, but shit, it was still unbelievable.

Guess he never considered it could happen (he was a little drunk) but same night had knocked down a huge oak door at this stupid Frat party with his 2 huge bear hands. Craziness.

Yeah fighting is dumb and all, I avoid them, but also won't back down, and ALWAYS try to resolve it verbally first. I've actually only been in like 3 or so fights past 18 years old, and they barely pass. I subdued all three. No punches on my end. I would, but I personally don't enjoy hurting people. I probably would if I had caught this fucker that grabbed my girlfriend's ass without my knowledge, but she intentionally didn't tell me til later. I was livid. Oh well.

 

[swordpath]

I have noticed that I am rather attracted to a lot of MMA type guys. Ironic given I have no interest in the sport, nor watching. It's ironic and unfortunate really.

lol...

 

[Ene]

[MENTION=23213]GarrotTheThief[/MENTION] I like this

Fighting is dumb and inevitably results in tragedy outside of a ring/or gym.

My grandmaster always has said...

Don't fight unless you have to, but if you have to...win.

I am a warrior in a garden and thus far all I've had to fight are weeds.

 

[Ene]

Also, is there anybody else on here who trains in internal styles?

 

[SD45T-2]

 

[GarrotTheThief]

Also, is there anybody else on here who trains in internal styles?

I read your profile. you train in baguazang? Very cool - I will learn that eventually. I don't know if you consider wing chung internal but that's what I trained in first.

I can't begin to conceive of baguazang or pretend to but I've seen it done and I know from moving and break-dancing that the spiraling motion generates a lot of force.

 

[Ene]

I do train in Bagauazhang. It is a central part of my life. I think Wing Chun implements some internal elements. I realize that most styles do in reality, but Xingyi, Taiji, and Bagua are classified as internal.

As with any style, there's a lot of ground to cover. Bagua does heavily utilize rotation. It is all about generating and exerting the maximum amount of energy with the minimum expenditure. It's an art of efficiency and change.

Like Wing Chun, there is a wooden dummy involved in training. We have eight forms we use on the dummy. We have eight segments of the Bagua form.

I really respect Wing Chun, well all the arts really. I like the notion that whichever art you choose to learn, learn it well. Good Bagau teachers may be very slow in unfolding the hidden applications in every hand movement, every foot movement, but if a person is patient, it's worth the wait.

 

[johnnyyukon]

Also, is there anybody else on here who trains in internal styles?

What is an internal style?

[MENTION=23213]GarrotTheThief[/MENTION] I like this

My grandmaster always has said...

Don't fight unless you have to, but if you have to...win.

I am a warrior in a garden and thus far all I've had to fight are weeds.

Ha, you're cute.

I read your profile. you train in baguazang? Very cool - I will learn that eventually. I don't know if you consider wing chung internal but that's what I trained in first.

I can't begin to conceive of baguazang or pretend to but I've seen it done and I know from moving and break-dancing that the spiraling motion generates a lot of force.

Like Capoeira? I've only seen it once or twice in a competition, but that shit can be DEVASTATING. Think it's hard to be accurate on a moving target though. Just guessing.

I do train in Bagauazhang. It is a central part of my life. I think Wing Chun implements some internal elements. I realize that most styles do in reality, but Xingyi, Taiji, and Bagua are classified as internal.

As with any style, there's a lot of ground to cover. Bagua does heavily utilize rotation. It is all about generating and exerting the maximum amount of energy with the minimum expenditure. It's an art of efficiency and change.

Like Wing Chun, there is a wooden dummy involved in training. We have eight forms we use on the dummy. We have eight segments of the Bagua form.

I really respect Wing Chun, well all the arts really. I like the notion that whichever art you choose to learn, learn it well. Good Bagau teachers may be very slow in unfolding the hidden applications in every hand movement, every foot movement, but if a person is patient, it's worth the wait.

Damn, I've got some research to do.

 

[Ene]

[MENTION=20955]johnnyyukon[/MENTION]

What is an internal style?

Internal martial arts focus more on spiritual, mental and qi aspects of the person's training. External arts such as karate or jujitsu supposedly focus more on the physiological aspects. However, all external arts incorporate some internal aspects and some internal arts incorporate some external aspects; so no style is purely one way or the other. In Bagauzhang, we spend a lot of time developing and manipulating our body's bioelectrical energy. We actually practice such things as raising/lowering our body temperature with concentration or slowing/increasing our heart rates, etc. We also spend time studying pressure points, acupressure, etc. I train in iron palm and vibrational palm. With a vibrational strike, I can strike a coconut on Monday and on Wednesday a crack will develop. It's a delayed reaction. Iron palm, of course, that's used for an immediate result, like a broken bone, etc. Bagua also incorporates a lot of training with knives and [called Wudang sword] swords. We use something called deer hook swords, and a ringed dagger. We do a lot of stick fighting [makes me feel like Gambit!] In Bagau, no movements are wasted. Every block is also a strike and even a retreat is a strike. We incorporate various animal styles as well.

Have you ever seen the Ip Man movies? The last one called the Grand Master does a good job showing some real Bagua. But of course, there are several lineages of Baguazhang.

I hope I didn't talk to much in answering that question, you know, just rambling.

I've only seen it once or twice in a competition, but that shit can be DEVASTATING.

Yes, it can.

I think it's hard to be accurate on a moving target though. Just guessing.

You are right. It is hard. One of the foundational principles of Bagau is that if you cease to move, you cease to exist. Bagau is rooted in the principle of constant motion, constant change. I think that's why I like it. It is a constant challenge. Even more challenging is finding a good teacher.

Ha, you're cute.

Haha...the weeds don't think so.

Damn, I've got some research to do.

There is some good info out there, but let me say that a lot of what is on youtube is amateur. Eli Montague [focuses more on Tai Chi but he IS a Bagau master] and Chris Matsuo of Dragon Gate Sanctuary are both really good. The Black Taoist is also good. These are some online guys that I am into and communicate with. Well, I don't communicate with Matsuo, but my teacher was a friend of Erle Montague's, so I've talked to Eli a bit here and there.

Okay, I hope that is a good starting place. When you talk martial arts, you speak my language. haha. I love what I do.

 

[Ene]

This discussion seems to have waned, but I wanted to add that when you train on the wooden dummy, it's awfully easy to bruise your pinky finger. My poor pinky.

 

[johnnyyukon]

This discussion seems to have waned, but I wanted to add that when you train on the wooden dummy, it's awfully easy to bruise your pinky finger. My poor pinky.

Oh yeah, I'm a forgetful person but I did mean to get back here.

Jam it? That is tragic. The only thing worse is a pinky toe, only bone I ever broke, somehow.

I had a teacher that would punch concrete to damage his bones so they'd recalcify even stronger.

I noticed a much lesser degree of this when I first started boxing. Specifically the heavy punching bag. For the first 3 weeks or so, I was always tweaking my wrists. Even after my coach said I was FINALLY punching correctly. But after a while, the pain completely stopped. I eventually took off the gloves, then the knuckle wraps, so just bare knuckle on a heavy punching bag. Punching with my entire body and energy. Zero tweaks of my wrist, zero pain. I'd just adjusted. That was about 4 years ago and I haven't tweaked my wrist sense. Well maybe once or twice.

I will say, if it's been awhile, the skin comes off my knuckles but quickly heals and scar tissue builds up, and I can bare knuckle 5 days a week with no abrasions/bleeding.

I've definitely jammed a finger while rolling (jiu jitsu sparring) here or there, ha. Actual competition is much less predictable obviously.

Internal martial arts focus more on spiritual, mental and qi aspects of the person's training. External arts such as karate or jujitsu supposedly focus more on the physiological aspects. However, all external arts incorporate some internal aspects and some internal arts incorporate some external aspects; so no style is purely one way or the other.

In Bagauzhang, we spend a lot of time developing and manipulating our body's bioelectrical energy. We actually practice such things as raising/lowering our body temperature with concentration or slowing/increasing our heart rates, etc. We also spend time studying pressure points, acupressure, etc.

I train in iron palm and vibrational palm. With a vibrational strike, I can strike a coconut on Monday and on Wednesday a crack will develop. It's a delayed reaction. Iron palm, of course, that's used for an immediate result, like a broken bone, etc. Bagua also incorporates a lot of training with knives and [called Wudang sword] swords. We use something called deer hook swords, and a ringed dagger. We do a lot of stick fighting [makes me feel like Gambit!] In Bagau, no movements are wasted. Every block is also a strike and even a retreat is a strike. We incorporate various animal styles as well.

Yeah, there's a lot to be said for the Internal Arts (I know what that means now!). I'm guessing since it's somewhat choreographed (similar to doing punching bag or focus mitt combinations) it's more of a dance where your entire body must be engaged for maximum effectiveness. I've done some Kali or Eskrima stick fighting, and it's like a Yoga vinyasa flow or tai chi. Very relaxing, but with potential for very real defense applications.

That's wild about the coconut, ha. I'll have to look into the science there.

Have you ever seen the Ip Man movies? The last one called the Grand Master does a good job showing some real Bagua. But of course, there are several lineages of Baguazhang.

I did see Ip Man! at least the 2008 one. Very cool. Kind of looks like Jeet Kun Do, but I don't have a discerning eye for those styles (I've done a little JKD, and it involved a lot of close quarter combat and blocking while striking, like you mentioned).

Do you have any good youtube videos of some classic Baguazhang techniques?

I hope I didn't talk to much in answering that question, you know, just rambling.

Ramble on sister.

You are right. It is hard. One of the foundational principles of Bagau is that if you cease to move, you cease to exist. Bagau is rooted in the principle of constant motion, constant change. I think that's why I like it. It is a constant challenge. Even more challenging is finding a good teacher.

I'll keep bringing up boxing, because I think it's similar and what I think relates and what I know the most about.

Same principles, constant movement. The feet shuffling, head bobbing, moving with your knees bent, almost doing constant little squats so you are prepared to rocket launch off your lower body to deliver a devastating punch. it was very hard to learn to punch with my entire body. But when you do, it's incredibly powerful, and the more relaxed you are, the more powerful it is. Strange paradox.

I never got really good at sparring, but at times, I'd be in a temporary fluid flow with a partner and I would land a really strong punch without even thinking or trying to, but you could just feel the punch land squarely, perfectly. Perhaps a little too hard for medium sparring, but the conditioned body just reacts. I've stopped and said, "Oh shit, sorry, you good?" And carry on. I've probably had my dome ROCKED more than I've given though, haha.

There is some good info out there, but let me say that a lot of what is on youtube is amateur. Eli Montague [focuses more on Tai Chi but he IS a Bagau master] and Chris Matsuo of Dragon Gate Sanctuary are both really good. The Black Taoist is also good. These are some online guys that I am into and communicate with. Well, I don't communicate with Matsuo, but my teacher was a friend of Erle Montague's, so I've talked to Eli a bit here and there.

Send me some links.

Okay, I hope that is a good starting place. When you talk martial arts, you speak my language. haha. I love what I do.

I need to get back into it. Internal or External, I don't really care. Once I started martial arts, there was no going back, so if I'm not practicing, I don't get the same spiritual/physical/mental confidence day to day.

It's always inside me, but it needs watering.



MMA is very scrappy, often sloppy looking fighting system. But that's because that's how REAL fights are, if you've ever seen them. It's not choreographed, it doesn't look as pretty as Ip Man, that's just not how real fights happen. There are definitely moments in a cage fight, or boxing match that are very graceful exchanges of extreme violence, as strange as that sounds. I've seen it on tv, and about 2 feet from actual fighters at local events (I was a photographer). Like 20-30 second bursts of something that DID look choreagraphed, but nope, it was just two fighters connecting and making violent art.

Ok, this post may have been a bit rough to read, ha, I'm about to pass out.

 

[hacbad macbar]

Just two words

I WILL

 

[Ene]

Oh yeah, I'm a forgetful person but I did mean to get back here.

Jam it? That is tragic. The only thing worse is a pinky toe, only bone I ever broke, somehow.

Ouch, a broken pinky toe does not sound fun. Yes, it is easy to jam a finger on the dummy, but most often I accidentally hit with a joint and bruise the joint of my pinky finger. When training on the iron palm [concrete] it is easier to do that to my thumb. I have managed to jam the pinky finger several times, too.

I had a teacher that would punch concrete to damage his bones so they'd recalcify even stronger.

We do something very similar to this. We call it iron body. My teacher will hit me with a stick to form micro fractures in my bones so that they repair themselves and become stronger. It kind of hurts over the next few days and it makes my bones ache, but then they heal. On the surface a practitioner's skin doesn't look any different than anyone else's, but it's purpose is to enable a person to take blows.

But after a while, the pain completely stopped.

Yeah, that's how it's been for me too.

I eventually took off the gloves, then the knuckle wraps, so just bare knuckle on a heavy punching bag. Punching with my entire body and energy. Zero tweaks of my wrist, zero pain. I'd just adjusted. That was about 4 years ago and I haven't tweaked my wrist sense. Well maybe once or twice.

That's pretty awesome.

I've definitely jammed a finger while rolling (jiu jitsu sparring) here or there, ha. Actual competition is much less predictable obviously.

Obviously!

Yeah, there's a lot to be said for the Internal Arts (I know what that means now!).

Cool!

I'm guessing since it's somewhat choreographed (similar to doing punching bag or focus mitt combinations) it's more of a dance where your entire body must be engaged for maximum effectiveness.

When you're just practicing it does look choreographed but in actual use, it's just usually over quickly. I can barely stand to watch a sword fight or a knife fight on a movie. An actual knife fight lasts less than three seconds, especially if one or both of the people know what they're doing.

I've done some Kali or Eskrima stick fighting, and it's like a Yoga vinyasa flow or tai chi. Very relaxing, but with potential for very real defense applications.

Absolutely! I am never more at peace than when I'm just practicing. A person's whole self is engaged in the act.

That's wild about the coconut, ha. I'll have to look into the science there.

It's just that you can strike a coconut in such a manner as to initiate a vibration. Perhaps, it's because the coconut is hollow [but filled with liquid] that when a person hits it just right, a vibration will travel through it and cause tiny cracks to appear. I train to listen for the frequency that will crack the coconut. I don't attempt to break it, just to listen for the "sound." However, whenever I achieve the sound, a crack will inevitably appear. The vibration, in turn, causes structural damage. I won't go into detail about how that is used in a real life situation, but it's not the type of thing you would use in a ring. It serves no purpose there.

I did see Ip Man! at least the 2008 one. Very cool.

I'm Yip Man fan. My Great-grandmaster trained under Yip Man's student around the time Bruce Lee was training under Ip or [Yip] Man. So, I'm fourth generation from Ip Man. Haha...as if that accounts for anything. Still, the movies are movies and you now how movies are. Still, I am not a Wing Chun specialist, but rather I focus primarily on the Baguazhang and Taji. The 2013 rendition is the one I was actually referring to. When it came out my teacher called me and told me..."Watch that movie. Watch her footwork." He was impressed with it and said that for a movie they did a pretty good job of representing Bagauzhang.

Kind of looks like Jeet Kun Do, but I don't have a discerning eye for those styles (I've done a little JKD, and it involved a lot of close quarter combat and blocking while striking, like you mentioned).

Yes, it is very much reliant on close quarter combat.

Do you have any good youtube videos of some classic Baguazhang techniques?

Here's one of Erle and Eli doing a slow instruction. Anything by Erle or Eli is good.

Actually, I edited and decided to remove the YouTube video. I will send it to you in a PM and along with some other links.

I'll keep bringing up boxing, because I think it's similar and what I think relates and what I know the most about.

That's cool. I am a strong believer in being dedicated to your art, whichever one you choose. And there are similarities.

Same principles, constant movement.

Yes!!!

But when you do, it's incredibly powerful, and the more relaxed you are, the more powerful it is. Strange paradox.

It's exactly that way in Bagau.

Send me some links.

I will!

Once I started martial arts, there was no going back, so if I'm not practicing, I don't get the same spiritual/physical/mental confidence day to day.

I know. That's the way it is for me, too. Once a person tastes it, really tastes it, there IS no going back.

MMA is very scrappy, often sloppy looking fighting system. But that's because that's how REAL fights are, if you've ever seen them. It's not choreographed, it doesn't look as pretty as Ip Man, that's just not how real fights happen.

Oh, you are absolutely right!

There are definitely moments in a cage fight, or boxing match that are very graceful exchanges of extreme violence, as strange as that sounds.

No, it doesn't sound strange...I totally get it. haha.]

I've seen it on tv, and about 2 feet from actual fighters at local events (I was a photographer).

Awesome.

My reply was rough, also, but we're talking about the art of fighting so rough is okay.

 

[GarrotTheThief]

This discussion seems to have waned, but I wanted to add that when you train on the wooden dummy, it's awfully easy to bruise your pinky finger. My poor pinky.

it's hard to come by a wooden dummy here. one gym had a metal bar and punching bags. I put a thin padding on it and began training on it. it's amazing how much a solid structure improves your form. I would go up it very slowly and make sure my motion is perfectly efficient, meaning a straight line and gently increase the force so as not to hurt my joints.

eventually I was able to generate so much force with so little motion that a few kick boxers asked me to show them how to move like that - they would basically see me from behind just moving a step and then the entire metal structure would explode with force. it was basically an internal focus on creating body unity but the move i was doing was a back fist with a forward step.

it's really hard though to show this sort of body unity. when i used to skateboard it was similar to doing an olley. It's also similar to breakdancing.

body unity really is the key to a lot of physical actions actually and that's one thing i admire about internal arts. they build this body unity so that you can use it for anything from washing dishes to moving furniture because you're basically learning how the body was meant to be used.

i definitely want to learn bagua eventually but for now I've just taken it upon myself to do some break dancing - haha.

 

[Ene]

it's hard to come by a wooden dummy here.

A wooden dummy isn't that hard to make, actually. Mine is home-made. It is made from a telephone pole, as metal arms and for padding, I use rope tightly wound around the body. Mine is mounted on a car wheel so that it is portable.

it's amazing how much a solid structure improves your form.

yes, it is.

eventually I was able to generate so much force with so little motion that a few kick boxers asked me to show them how to move like that

- very cool.

it's really hard though to show this sort of body unity. when i used to skateboard it was similar to doing an olley. It's also similar to breakdancing.

I don't doubt that one bit.

body unity really is the key to a lot of physical actions actually

I totally agree.

and that's one thing i admire about internal arts. they build this body unity so that you can use it for anything from washing dishes to moving furniture because you're basically learning how the body was meant to be used.

Absolutely. My sister uses Taiji principles to win pool tournaments. She doesn't get into the combat training but does do Taiji for health.

i definitely want to learn bagua eventually

i think that if you are into spiraling movements as in break dancing, you will do well.

but for now I've just taken it upon myself to do some break dancing - haha.

That sounds very fun!

 

[danseen]

MMA looks gay....sorry, but then rolling on the floor trying to punch each other?

 

[Eluded_One]

Fight Club days:

More like "go get a room" days.

MMA looks gay....sorry, but then rolling on the floor trying to punch each other?

MMA was totally heterosexual until Royce Gracie (BJJ representative) took the MMA world by storm. Up until now, it's totally man on man spread-eagle position - that's the way I train all day and every day.

Before I got into BJJ, I thought it was gay. After I got into BJJ, I still think it's gay. But it also made me more confident in my sexuality. I can now hug a guy and not notice his crotch rubbing on me.

 

[chickpea]

my boyfriends brother and his girlfriend are super into MMA and are always talking about it and trying to get us to take classes with them. honestly it sounds pretty cult-like. they do different amateur competitions almost every month and it seems like an endless money pit. basically i don't want to pay to get beaten up, that idea does not appeal to me.

also her appeal was that it's "perfect for girls who don't fit in, like us." EXCUSE ME?

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

My girlfriend wants me to get back into it. I'm considering doing so.