User Tag List

First 45678 Last

Results 51 to 60 of 129

  1. #51
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,657

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    The only 'secret' I have is that I dislike feeling very full. Have since I was a little kid. I'm also a non-taster, but I think that predisposes one toward weight gain rather than thinness from what I've read.


    It does not seem to be as easy for other people as it is for me. I don't think it's metabolism or not primarily, in my case. I think it's that I can't eat and eat and eat even when I want to. Even when the food is so delicious I think I must be in heaven and I want to eat it until there is no more of it left on the earth. I get to a certain point and I can't eat anymore.
    This is the key difference

    People who override their fullness feeling do so for a reason - though many won't even register that fullness feeling anymore after years of abuse. Eating triggers your parasympathic system. Eating heavy foods and overeating even more so. It makes you sluggish, numb and forces your body into a rest-and-digest state. For someone who is under constant stress, who is constantly in flight or fight mode due to internal conflict, the fullness pain is a small price to pay for just an hour of rest from that chronic stress they feel. It's a pain they have control over, depending on how much food they stuff down their throat, compared to the non-stop state of vigilance that rules them, out of their control, normally.

    In essence, it's self-medicating, in order to cope. Add to that an unawareness that this aint normal - as they usually learned this coping mechanism in childhood, a loss of meaning for the sensation of fullness to the point of not even being able to identify it anymore, as well as having no real parameters on what a normal serving for their body would even look like, and you get obesity as a result.

    And it is what needs addressing. Old belief systems that are causing their stress need to be removed, self-esteem needs to be rebuilt, education on which foods will make you feel fuller and why, and re-exploration and experimentation with that feeling of fullness -as well as learning how to cope with the panic you experience once you rediscover what how urgent hunger can feel - are key to rediscovering what your body actually needs...and losing the weight.

    And yes, you don't have to decide to go healthy foods, though it would help. Just like you, they can use their favourite 'bad' foods to still lose weight - they just have to learn what you already instinctively know - being overly full is unpleasant and unnecessary in life. So if you eat heavy foods, you only need so much, while lighter foods allow you to graze more as you need more of em to feel full.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  2. #52
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Posts
    2,934

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I concur. I do believe however that your focus is counterproductive and the wrong way to address this epidemic. Here's why:

    I'll tell you now that anyone who does not want to be helped, cannot be helped. And the more you push and prod and tell them to get help, the more they'll recoil in shame. I do agree that education, encouragement and making help convenient, accessible and normal to ask for - instead of the stigma that going to a shrink atm holds - is the way forward.

    On top of that, it needs to become apparent that when those people do ask for help, they won't be judged, called lazy, and terrified with those three things you rightly suggest are the key - coz they already know they cannot do them, at least at present. The focus of that help, and the campaign to advertise said help should not be on those 3 items; it should be on understanding, acceptance of who they are and how they are valuable members of society that deserve to be helped by that same society, to combat the shame and impossible to reach high standards they already subject themselves to.

    And in that respect, it would be a good thing if society quit fat shaming, telling them the same gorram 3 things over and over again - no matter how true they are, and determine they are lazy for not hopping to

    Focus on the first obstacle, not on the stuff that needs to happen later on. For that matter, the nauseating repetition of those points, true as they are, drowns out the more obscure and lesser known part of the plan- the actual addressing of false beliefs which has trapped them in this cycle and the replacing of old coping mechanisms with more efficient ones. This has to come first in order to even be capable of getting to the well known part.

    Otherwise you are setting them up for failure - coz nobody can whiteknuckle through that much psychological pain or should have to while at the same time going out of their way to do those 3 things consistently - before they even get started, reconfirming the belief they already hold that once again they are worthless human beings deserving this treatment that society doles out. And the eating recommences while the cycle continues.
    I also concur with what you say. The psychological issue is very difficult to handle. By the way, I have noticed we are on a site dedicated to psychology...

    But I think there should be a great difference between making obese people understand thay "they are valuable members of society that deserve to be helped by that same society", and what the fat acceptance movements are promoting, that they should accept to be obese, that it is perfectly "normal" to be so.
    My main issue with these fat acceptance movements is that they are purposefully spreading lies, very dangerous lies like the so-called campaign "Health at Every Size". It's exactly like drug-addict people lobbying to promote their favorite drug freely, and pretending that cocaine, heroine or extasy are perfectly harmless. We can not allow that either.

    Tricky, isn't it?

    ---

    As an urbanist, the first thing I can do without "shaming fat people", is to design environments where it is pleasant to walk, where it is useful to walk (to go shopping for instance), where light transports are cheap, accessible and safe (bikes or light rail transit for instance), where most people can have access to healthy food products (-> farmer's markets rather than malls or supermarkets, plus the promotion of urban farming, of biological farming, and so on). It's also our duty to limit the access to junk food, even if I know that several brands will immediately sue and attack us. Not forbidding them, but limiting them, just like we limit access to tobacco and alcohol.
    As an architect/lanscape architect, I can design places with a limited use of escalators and elevators, where it is pleasant to exercise even without noticing it.

    This is, as a technical specialist, what I can do. I can't do miracles, but it's a good start.


    After all, obesity prevalence is deeply related with they way we build our environment, as well as education.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

    7w8 SCUxI

  3. #53
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    What you wrote about the stairs is absolutely true.

    During decades, people were encouraged, unfortunately to take the elevator instead of the stairs.

    But medical studies have shown that people who take the stairs, or who walk even only a mile a day (on a regular basis) are at a far lesser risk of becoming obese. Thus, in architecture, we have now what we call "active design": buildings that are purposefully designed to make people prefer to take the stairs rather than the elevator.

    For instance:



    Here is a recent project, the Cooper Union building, in New York (arch: Morphosis), and you can see how the architects have designed their stairs to attract people.

    ---

    And in urbanism it's the same: to fight obesity pandemics, our master plans now focus on how to make cities "walkable", how to encourage people to walk or take public transports rather their own private car.
    Ah that is very cool. I think I was basing my opinions partly on the same recent studies that have shown that even small amounts of exercise bestow significant benefits. I actually started sitting on a yoga ball at home and routinely get up after an hour of sitting and dance around a bit to keep the blood flowing.

  4. #54
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    Enfp
    Enneagram
    497 sx/so
    Socionics
    IEE Fi
    Posts
    14,657

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I also concur with what you say. The psychological issue is very difficult to handle. By the way, I have noticed we are on a site dedicated to psychology...

    But I think there should be a great difference between making obese people understand thay "they are valuable members of society that deserve to be helped by that same society", and what the fat acceptance movement are promoting, that they should accept to be obese, that it is perfectly "normal" to be so.
    My main issue with these fat acceptance movements is that they are purposefully spreading lies, very dangerous lies like the so-called campaign "Health at Every Size". It's exactly like drug-addict people lobbying to promote their favorite drug freely, and pretending that cocaine, heroine or extasy are perfectly harmless. We can not allow that either.

    Tricky, isn't it?

    ---

    As an urbanist, the first thing I can do without "shaming fat people", is to design environments where it is pleasant to walk, where it is useful to walk (to go shopping for instance), where light transports are cheap, accessible and safe (bikes or light rail transit for instance), where most people can have access to healthy food products (-> farmer's market rather than malls or supermarkets, plus the promotion of urban farming, of biological farming, and so on). It's also our duty to limit the access to junk food, even if I know that several brands will immediately sue and attack us. Not forbidding them, but limiting them, just like we limit access to tobacco and alcohol.
    As an architect/lanscape architect, I can design places with a limited use of escalators and elevators, where it is pleasant to exercise even without noticing it.

    This is, as a technical specialist, what I can do. I can't do miracles, but it's a good start.


    After all, obesity prevalence is deeply related with they way we build our environment, as well as education.
    I think that is definitely a wonderful and valuable contribution to encouraging a healthier lifestyle
    And I am glad to see we are on the same page, that we agree on what needs to be done. It often goes unacknowledged ime.

    So, here's the potential rub for me...probably the Fi-Ti rub

    While I fully agree that we as a society should work towards making a healthy lifestyle convenient, it *is* the person's choice whether or not they want to actually make use of that convenience.

    Unlike other substance abuse, obesity does not...threaten or harm others. Yes, it might be harmful to their relationship, and not pleasant for others to interact with, but there is no inherent harm from sitting next to an obese person on the bus. It's not like a drunk driver that can come out of nowhere and take your life, or like a junkie who will rob and possibly kill you for his next high.

    And as such, it is their choice whether or not they want to be obese. Even smokers have this choice, and second hand smoke does kill. But they are entitled to smoke when they are in fact in the designated areas for that activity. It is their body, and theirs to do with what they will.

    I do believe however that the current fat acceptance movement is very much a backlash to the shaming that goes on, for the most part. They do have a point though that just because people carry their weight on their body for everyone to see, does not mean that those people get to interfere with *their* business or how they conduct their life. Thats the thing about obesity - despite it being a private, personal matter to the person, be it a choice or a prison cell they built themselves, everyone feels entitled to comment on it, even, when they do so, like you are, for the betterment of the person and society.

    There are so many things we *should* do for our own health and benefit. But no one should ever be *forced* to do them by someone else. Freedom of choice. It is a big one for Fi - and a valid one, imho as a Fi-user

    And in that respect, the fat acceptance movement is very much addressing an important issue, their motto being: it is none of your gorram business what i do with my body. And they are right. Now, when they start acting like feeders (lovers of BBW), and encouraging people to actively *become* obese coz of whatever reason, *THEN* you have a point. Until then, they are perfectly within their rights to demand people to back the fuck off and let them live their lives. And in doing so, they play a key role in standing up for and raising awareness for the need for a less judgemental environment, with less pressure, where it becomes less ok to just pick on the fat person, who, if they are struggling and want to change, will actually get the breathing room and space to deal with their issues instead of having to deal with everyone's judgement as well as their original problem, which will hopefully result - along with the measures on education, encouragement and destigmatisation - in more of them finding the courage, energy and hope that they can change their predicament.

    Win-win.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  5. #55
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    24,060

    Default

    There are two people whose opinions on my weight I want to hear. One of them is my spouse, and the other is my doctor. If you're not one of those people, then MYOB.

    I do agree that we can do a lot of work to help encourage people to move more and eat less on an institutional level. Urban planning helps (the area where I live is very sprawl-y, and there is no way to work exercise into my practical everyday life because I can't get to any of the places I regularly go on foot or by bike, so exercise has to be "extra" which is hard to sustain). But IMO unless you're a doctor or someone with a personal stake in another person's health, STFU and MYOB. And even then, there are productive and non-productive ways to have the conversation. Outside of those very narrow parameters, IMO it's best to handle the issue on a macro level.

    It's like my own personal soapbox topic: breastfeeding. I was a La Leche League leader, I nursed my own children for 2-3 years each, and I deeply, strongly believe in breastfeeding for public health and personal reasons. But I don't make it a habit to tell people who feed their own children formula that they should be breastfeeding. Number one, I don't know what their personal situation is, or what kind of environment they grew up in. Number two, it doesn't help, because it just makes people feel hurt and defensive to act like they're doing something wrong and you know how to do it better. What I can, and do, do, though, is advocate for institutional changes that will affect breastfeeding rates on a macro level (hospital policies, legislation about women's rights to pump at work, encouraging public acceptance of nursing as normal in public places, etc).

  6. #56
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    enfp
    Enneagram
    8
    Posts
    13,877

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Mobius View Post
    I know they did something similar in New Zealand schools; requiring that the food met certain nutritional criteria; things like soft drinks got the boot replaced with juices and bottled water. Which when I think about it, wouldn’t have made a difference to Coke Cola as they own all the juice and bottled water companies in NZ.
    They did stuff like that here too, but the problem is the stuff they're placing is just as bad.. processed juice has just as much bad stuff as cola most of the time. Sparkling water is better for you than processed apple juice with less than 10% actual juice.

    But as long as it *sounds* healthy, people are happy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    (...)
    I think you underestimate the lack of education the world has on nutrition.

    That is serious stuff I heard all the time growing up and even still now from females. Females that brag about how much they can eat without gaining a pound--never mind that they're unhealthy, as long as they aren't gaining weight they have to be okay with whatever they are eating, right?.. And, honestly, especially when you're young, the chances of you going out to a salad place with your friends isn't very high. The burger joint next to the school though? Oh yeah. Teenagers and young adults are just not known for their high-health lifestyles.

    It just isn't ingrained into the culture of things. Teenagers are impulsive in all aspects of life. Food is absolutely one of those aspects. And it shows throughout young adulthood, when you realize all those cool calories you were burning growing have tapered off but your habits haven't changed at all.

    Having "good" or "bad" genes is, in the case of obesity, most of the time a legend, unless you're a Pacific Islander or very unlucky.
    It's a legend purposefully designed to make obese people feel better, but it's a legend nonetheless. Some scientists deperately try to find evidences supporting this legend (because it's true some cases of diabete have, indeed, a genetic cause), but for the vast majority of obese people (between 80 to 90%), the most obvious reason why they're obese is bad nutritional habits and a very sedentary lifestyle.
    To say genes have 100% to do with obesity is nonsense. It was not what I was implying. But obesity shows up differently in all sorts of people because of genes. You can be a normal weight and be considered obese. You can be over weight but have a perfectly normal body fat percentage. And genes play a role in illnesses and predispositions. Ignoring those things is nonsense as well. My point is: there are plenty of unhealthy people contributing to the mass of debt that comes from illnesses pertaining to an unhealthy lifestyle, but because they don't *look* fat, they get magically exempt from scrutiny.

    In comparison to a situation like my own mother's, who is not out of the ordinary. Working out in her late 50's for an hour a day to a rigorous routine that most young adults say they cannot do, eating clean healthy food, and watching her calories. She is obese in the sense she looks really fat. Because, even though she was skinny her whole life, the medicine she's required to take MAKES her body hold on to energy. That's part of its side effects--water weight and energy clinging.

    My point is to illustrate that looking fat and being fat are two different things, and it is impossible to tell the difference without being their doctor.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

  7. #57
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    5,806

    Default

    Everybody wants to tell somebody how to do something that anyone could be doing, but nobody wants to be told by just anybody that what somebody could be doing is something that everyone should do.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  8. #58
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    enfp
    Enneagram
    8
    Posts
    13,877

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    I basically agree with you, but I believe that a person and people in general must act as if they have free will even if they don't. In other words, if I go around with the philosophy "I/they couldn't help it" then I think I will have a more negative effect on them. I would like to spread memes/beliefs that are encouraging.
    It's a double edged sword. On the one hand, saying you can't do it gets people no where. But saying they can, when they can't, is just setting them up for failure. My mother will never be 130 lbs again. No matter how much effort she gives it for the rest of her life. Telling her she CAN lose weight and be 'normal' again will just make her give up.

    I find that it is best to come from those close to the person. Someone can preach nutrition at my mom all day--she won't budge. I invite her to work out with me, and she's there and ready in 5 minutes. It takes active effort--from friends and family--and positive energy from shining examples. That is where things spread. Active effort and positive energy.

    All I'm saying is, I want to spread the belief that walking up staircases is an easy thing I think more people should do. I see people at the mall for instance, almost all of them using the escalator when there is a perfectly good staircase right there next to it. Is it my business what these people want to do? Yes, it is. I have to look at them every day, and it depresses me to see such apathy. I don't mind being the guy who has to wake people up. We need to look our best and be healthy. We need to stay fit. It's the right way to live. I think that's pretty much absolute, as in, if you don't think it, you're wrong no matter what you believe about your position.
    I agree with you--in that I feel apathy is a disease plaguing our society in massive waves. But there's just things we cannot see--and it is hard to make a judgment call. For example myself: I'm 26, I look very healthy, I'm fit, and I work out. And my hips are also damaged. To the point walking hurts on them sometimes until I have to sit in and rest. It'd be really easy for someone to look at me taking the elevator instead of the stairs just next to me and think I am some spoiled, lazy American.

    No one ever thought it was fair to be judged based on the masses in school. No one really liked mass punishment, because it didn't take into account the individual merits. It invalidated the efforts that were made.

    Obesity, and health, is one slice of life. There are obese people that are doing more with their time than anything I have ever accomplished. Nutrition is not a factor for everyone. They have other things that need their energy and time. To think it as anything close to the top of the totem pole of how to experience your only life, it is.. a bit eccentric. (Not to say that is how you feel, just in general.)
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

  9. #59
    likes this gromit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    6,652

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It really isn't a gray area here. The state is not paying for things--the people pay the state via taxes.

    My mother gets looks from people all the time for being 'obese', despite the fact she works out longer, harder, eats better, and puts more active effort into her health than they ever have in their lives. Most 56 year olds would NOT be doing p90x at their age. My mother does, though, and for the entire hour 15 to hour 30. She walks everywhere, doesn't even use her handicap parking she was awarded unless she needs to, and completely changed her diet to eat clean and wholesome foods with natural sugars and all that bullshit.

    The state absolutely does NOT have a say in how healthy people can be because PEOPLE don't have a say in how healthy they are. They can only manage it to a certain extent--and that health status changes each day. Diet and exercise doesn't fix every illness in the world. Healthy people get sick too.

    I am all for proper education, educational programs and health programs, and even incentives for healthy lifestyles. But I am not for rewarding people born with better genes than others. I am about to let a state representative tell my mother she's obese when she's eating clean food and managing her weight with more precision than some skinny-fat guy that can eat a burger whenever he wants.
    I thought s/he was saying more at a food industry level sort of thing...
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  10. #60
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    738
    Socionics
    ILE None
    Posts
    7,263

    Default

    because they can still be saved
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

Similar Threads

  1. Why is it wrong to oppress people?
    By Journey in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: 04-14-2008, 01:29 PM
  2. Why is it so hard to not feed the trolls?
    By Zergling in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 11-15-2007, 05:23 AM
  3. Why is this so funny?
    By proteanmix in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 10-25-2007, 11:16 AM
  4. WHY can't I become someone else? Why is it not possible to really change?
    By mysavior in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-22-2007, 02:40 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO