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  1. #41
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Hypo or Hyperthyroidism prevalence is something like 0.2 to 2% according to countries.

    Once again, you're refering only to very specific cases, while I'm refering to the vast majority of the people who are obese.
    This isn't my point. My point is that there will be various levels of thyroxine production that fit into the normal category so metabolic burn rates will also vary.

    I'm just saying that according to most medical studies, only leptin seems to have a HUGE effect on the prevalence of obesity. Basic metabolism, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have such a noticeable effect, contrary to most legends.
    Refer to my previous points about number of fat cells, testosterone and T3/T4 levels in the body, of which all of these can and do impact on caloric burn rate and obesity.

    You've taken a really simplistic approach towards obesity where it's not that simple, never mind the emotional and mental aspects of it. It's quite a complex matter which also surround cultural and socioeconomic influences.

    I posted my pic so you'd know that I'm not debating based on self-protectionism.

  2. #42
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post

    You've taken a really simplistic approach towards obesity where it's not that simple, never mind the emotional and mental aspects of it. It's quite a complex matter which also surround cultural and socioeconomic influences.
    I don't think my approach is "that" simplistic. Once again, I work with medical specialists. Urban health is part of my job.

    But I'd rather say that, as an urbanist, my approach has to be "global", while yours is very narrow and very specific.
    I focus on what really seems to work for the vast majority of people.
    If you make them exercise more and educate them better about food issues, then the local prevalence of obesity stops and even sometimes dimishes. We have lot of statistics to prove that. This is also why I can say that basic metabolism isn't a real issue for at least 90% of people, despite the urban legend.

    You probably know that obese people often behave like drug addicts. Most of them will jump at the slightest explaination that could excuse their behaviour. But when we measure their daily food intake, it's obvious that it is their main issue. Most obese people will be in complete denial: they will eat, and eat, and eat again, and would even hide it and lie to their doctors of they have the opportunity to do so.

    Of course, psychologically speaking, just saying the plain truth like what I'm trying to do here might not be the best, most effective way to handle the problem. I know. Fat shaming might not be best solution, of course. Since obesity is most of the time an addiction, it's like trying to solve tabagism or alcoholism somehow: it's complex and won't happen overnight. Plus you have the concern about the appearance of obese people, even if this isn't my point since obesity is first and foremost a severe medical issue, one of the worst current world pandemics (especially in rich countries).

    That's why I'm all ears.
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  3. #43
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Fat shaming might not be best solution, of course.
    At least in this, we agree. Let's leave it at that since it's way past my bed time.

  4. #44
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Anyway.

    I think nonetheless that you will agree that:

    (1) Eating less

    (2) Eating healthier food

    (3) Exercising -even a little- on a daily basis

    Are the three best recommendations one can make to fight the current obesity pandemic.
    But then, it doesn't solve the issue because you will immediately notice that even if we can educate people better about their daily calorie intake, having access to a good supply of healthy food products can be difficult. And it's not everywhere that you can have the possibility of exercising and walking: for instance, if you live in a suburb where you have to take the car everytime you want to buy the slightest thing (for instance, if you live in a tract housing area)... well... then, it's easy to notice how complex this issue is, both politically, economically and sociologically...
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  5. #45
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Those are impossible to do if you do not remove the psychological issue in many of these cases first though. Yes, they lead to weight loss, but only if the psyche is capable of actually adhering to them. So there is a lot more work than those three factors, to be done. And the issue is therefore a lot more complex.
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  6. #46
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    No. Unless you're talking of Pacific Islanders who can inherit diabete very easily because their ancestors have often faced starvation, and have been "naturally selected" accordingly.

    But for the vast majority of people, the way you can get weight (or not) is absolutely the same.

    If your diet is based on pizzas and if you sit all day long in your chair (at work or in your car), chances are you will gain weight. In the majority of cases, there's no need to find a subtler explaination.
    I walk a mile or two a week when it's nice outside. I spend most of my time sitting around. I don't even have job. I pick the kids up from school in a car four or five days a week, I cook a couple of times a week, wash dishes a couple of times a week, I do about two loads of laundry a week. I go grocery shopping once a week. I clean the toilet and sink when they get gross. I generally have sex twice a week. I eat a fairly typical working class/working poor American diet.

    I weighed 86 lbs until I was in my mid-thirties when I started gaining about 4 lbs/yr. When I brought up the weight gain to my doctor, she laughed at me. I cut out a can of soda a day and I stopped gaining weight. Never got anywhere close to being obese.

    The only 'secret' I have is that I dislike feeling very full. Have since I was a little kid. I'm also a non-taster, but I think that predisposes one toward weight gain rather than thinness from what I've read.

    So I eat as much as I want and I sit on my ass and I'm at my ideal weight for my height, according to the charts I've seen. Despite having had four full-term pregnancies, being in my forties and having been poor in the American midwest most of my life.

    It does not seem to be as easy for other people as it is for me. I don't think it's metabolism or not primarily, in my case. I think it's that I can't eat and eat and eat even when I want to. Even when the food is so delicious I think I must be in heaven and I want to eat it until there is no more of it left on the earth. I get to a certain point and I can't eat anymore.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #47
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Those are impossible to do if you do not remove the psychological issue in many of these cases first though. Yes, they lead to weight loss, but only if the psyche is capable of actually adhering to them. So there is a lot more work than those three factors, to be done. And the issue is therefore a lot more complex.
    I agree.

    But as you see, this issue is very tricky because accepting the eating behaviour of obese people (like what you see in the so-called "fat acceptance movements") is not the solution either. Obesity is a severe medical condition, one of the leading cause of overmortality in the US (if not the worst). And as such, it should never be accepted or considered "normal".

    Of course, people have the right to commit suicide if they want... but it is also our duty to try everything to prevent that tragic outcome. Keeping a good health is a priceless gift.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  8. #48
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    The only 'secret' I have is that I dislike feeling very full. Have since I was a little kid. I'm also a non-taster, but I think that predisposes one toward weight gain rather than thinness from what I've read.

    So I eat as much as I want and I sit on my ass and I'm at my ideal weight for my height, according to the charts I've seen. Despite having had four full-term pregnancies, being in my forties and having been poor in the American midwest most of my life.

    It does not seem to be as easy for other people as it is for me. I don't think it's metabolism or not primarily, in my case. I think it's that I can't eat and eat and eat even when I want to. Even when the food is so delicious I think I must be in heaven and I want to eat it until there is no more of it left on the earth. I get to a certain point and I can't eat anymore.
    It means that your leptin levels [the hormone that controls your appetite] seem properly regulated. Your body seems to know when to eat, and when not to eat.
    For many people, this can be very difficult.

    Yes, most obese people eat far too much, but it's also because their bodies don't send them the normal signal when to stop.
    Large consumption of sugary drinks and corn syrup, for instance, seems to be one of the main reason why leptin levels can become very unbalanced.
    So you see, this has nothing to do with genetics, but rather with bad eating habits.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  9. #49
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I agree.

    But the you see, this issue is very tricky because accepting the eating behaviour of obese people (like what you see in the so-called "fat acceptance movements") is not the solution either. Obesity is a severe medical condition, one of the leading cause of overmortality in the US (if not the worst). And as such, it should never be accepted or considered "normal".

    Of course, people have the right to commit suicide if they want... but it is also our duty to try anything to prevent that tragic outcome.
    I concur. I do believe however that your focus is counterproductive and the wrong way to address this epidemic. Here's why:

    I'll tell you now that anyone who does not want to be helped, cannot be helped. And the more you push and prod and tell them to get help, the more they'll recoil in shame. I do agree that education, encouragement and making help convenient, accessible and normal to ask for - instead of the stigma that going to a shrink atm holds - is the way forward.

    On top of that, it needs to become apparent that when those people do ask for help, they won't be judged, called lazy, and terrified with those three things you rightly suggest are the key - coz they already know they cannot do them, at least at present. The focus of that help, and the campaign to advertise said help should not be on those 3 items; it should be on understanding, acceptance of who they are and how they are valuable members of society that deserve to be helped by that same society, to combat the shame and impossible to reach high standards they already subject themselves to.

    And in that respect, it would be a good thing if society quit fat shaming, telling them the same gorram 3 things over and over again - no matter how true they are, and determine they are lazy for not hopping to

    Focus on the first obstacle, not on the stuff that needs to happen later on. For that matter, the nauseating repetition of those points, true as they are, drowns out the more obscure and lesser known part of the plan- the actual addressing of false beliefs which has trapped them in this cycle and the replacing of old coping mechanisms with more efficient ones. This has to come first in order to even be capable of getting to the well known part.

    Otherwise you are setting them up for failure - coz nobody can whiteknuckle through that much psychological pain or should have to while at the same time going out of their way to do those 3 things consistently - before they even get started, reconfirming the belief they already hold that once again they are worthless human beings deserving this treatment that society doles out. And the eating recommences while the cycle continues.
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  10. #50
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    It means that your leptin levels [the hormone that controls your appetite] seem properly regulated. Your body seems to know when to eat, and when not to eat.
    For many people, this can be very difficult.

    Yes, most obese people eat far too much, but it's also because their bodies don't send them the normal signal when to stop.
    Large consumption of sugary drinks and corn syrup, for instance, seems to be one of the main reason why leptin levels can become very unbalanced.
    So you see, this has nothing to do with genetics, but rather with bad eating habits.
    I drank sweetened Koolaid and sweet tea daily as a kid. I don't ever remember drinking water. I drank corn syrup-sweetened soda daily as an adult until several months ago. I've eaten prepared foods like chicken nuggets, fish sticks, hot dogs, french fries, boxed macaroni and cheese daily most of my life.

    Edit: I took Cheez Whiz on white bread sandwiches to school for lunch almost every day.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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