• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Is modern medicine based on flawed scientific premises?

JAVO

.
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
9,178
MBTI Type
eNTP
What if modern medicine were based on a divergent branch of science whose objectivity was tainted by egos and people who used their power to enforce the truth as they see it?


From The Lost History of Medicine:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Germ Theory

Everyone has heard of Louis Pasteur. He is considered the father of the Germ Theory of Medicine and he
invented the process of pasteurization. Despite the simple fact that the Germ Theory of Medicine was at
least a hundred years older than Pasteur, his experiments that supposedly "proved" this theory have
established him as a cornerstone in Modern Medical History.

Too bad much of his work was plagiarized and totally unscientific.

What most of us don’t know about Pasteur is that throughout his career, he too often doubted his
assumptions. On his death bed, he even recanted saying the Germ Theory was all wrong: "It’s the
terrain, not the germ."

But did we hear his last words? No.

...

Germs Do Not Cause Disease

The most telling "concept" that has ever crossed my desk is the quotation Dr Young uses right at the
beginning of his book, Sick and Tired:

If I could live my life over again, I would devote it to proving that germs seek their natural
habitat—diseased tissue—rather than being the cause of the diseased tissue; e.g., mosquitoes
seek the stagnant water, but do not cause the pool to become stagnant. Rudolph Virchow
(Father of Pathology)

Do you understand the importance of this? When I read this quotation for the first time, it hit me like a
brick. I’ve always known the terrain was the key, but I had always thought of the terrain as the immune
system. I had had no idea that the proper terrain alone was, by itself, enough for perfect health. Nor had
it ever occurred to me that the immune system was merely a backup system that took over when the
terrain failed.

So, Béchamp was, in effect, telling Pasteur that his experiments proved nothing because it poisoned the
experimental animal’s terrain, hence allowing the germs to attack the diseased tissues caused by the
poisoning.

Before we go any further, we need to know this…

Take a banana and place it on a counter next to a piece of cheese. Place a glass over the cheese so it
doesn't dry out too quickly. Now watch them both over the over the next few days. What do you think
will happen? The banana starts to turn black and the cheese begins to mold. They go bad. They rot.

Now slice open the cheese. Inside, no mold. Slice open the banana. It's rotten inside. Smell the banana
and you'll smell a hint of alcohol. It's fermenting.

Something that perhaps only a few of you already knew is: The cheese molds from the outside in, but
the banana rots from the inside out.

The banana was alive. The cheese is not alive.

Every living thing comes equipped with it’s own janitorial service that goes to work when it dies. They
are programmed to clean up the mess our dead bodies leave behind.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm especially interested in hearing thoughts from: [MENTION=5076]nonsequitur[/MENTION] [MENTION=5645]Qre:us[/MENTION] [MENTION=315]Usehername[/MENTION] [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] [MENTION=14015]Inari Love[/MENTION] [MENTION=16382]Ene[/MENTION] [MENTION=1493]alcea rosea[/MENTION] [MENTION=6839]Scott N Denver[/MENTION] [MENTION=15773]greenfairy[/MENTION]
 

/DG/

silentigata ano (profile)
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
4,602
Well this is a weird thought experiment. If I understand you correctly, we could really say this about anything.

What if our understanding of electricity is completely "false?" Etc.

I'm not quite sure what we're going with this.
 

Usehername

On a mission
Joined
May 30, 2007
Messages
3,794
[MENTION=315]Usehername[/MENTION]

You should design a program that @Mention invites people to respond with their thoughts on their work projects. I am soo much more motivated to spend an hour reading, researching, and responding to this, surely because of the social invite, than I am motivated to focus on my own work for the day. I'm not going to actually spend time here; I'm going to do my work. But this seems like a money-making opportunity. :evilgenius: Go, programmer, go!

I am very intrigued. But I am trying to not feed my wandering habits.
 

JAVO

.
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
9,178
MBTI Type
eNTP
What if our understanding of electricity is completely "false?" Etc.
It will no doubt have shocking results!

You should design a program that @Mention invites people to respond with their thoughts on their work projects. I am soo much more motivated to spend an hour reading, researching, and responding to this, surely because of the social invite, than I am motivated to focus on my own work for the day. I'm not going to actually spend time here; I'm going to do my work. But this seems like a money-making opportunity. :evilgenius: Go, programmer, go!

I am very intrigued. But I am trying to not feed my wandering habits.
I like it! :laugh:
[MENTION=315]Usehername[/MENTION]: Post what productive things you did instead of reading about this thread topic. ;)
 

greenfairy

philosopher wood nymph
Joined
May 25, 2012
Messages
4,024
MBTI Type
iNfj
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Holistic medicine teaches that everything is energy. Bodies are energy condensed to a low vibrational level, and living bodies are systems of energy balance. Energy goes in, it does work to maintain balance in response to stimuli, then it is released. Health is when the system is at a high level of energy balancing functionality, and unhealthy when these mechanisms are not efficient. Energy balance occurs at all levels of being- physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, psychological, social, governed by chakras (in the Hindu system), or energy centers (which specialize in areas of energy balance). When the chakras are balanced health is high; when they are off balance health is low and energy is erratic or low. Traditional Chinese Medicine has a similar theory with qi. Concrete physical conditions such as environmental pollution, food quality, fitness, pathogens, etc. are factors in health, but do not constitute the whole picture. These things being in a negative state can cause disease and death, and in a positive state are necessary for health, but the energy balancing system is very resilient. The more developed the energy balancing system the more stress it can handle, because it can take in a large volume of imbalanced energy and balance it, converting it into positive energy the body can use.
 

/DG/

silentigata ano (profile)
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
4,602
Holistic medicine teaches that everything is energy. Bodies are energy condensed to a low vibrational level, and living bodies are systems of energy balance. Energy goes in, it does work to maintain balance in response to stimuli, then it is released. Health is when the system is at a high level of energy balancing functionality, and unhealthy when these mechanisms are not efficient. Energy balance occurs at all levels of being- physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, psychological, social, governed by chakras (in the Hindu system), or energy centers (which specialize in areas of energy balance). When the chakras are balanced health is high; when they are off balance health is low and energy is erratic or low. Traditional Chinese Medicine has a similar theory with qi. Concrete physical conditions such as environmental pollution, food quality, fitness, pathogens, etc. are factors in health, but do not constitute the whole picture. These things being in a negative state can cause disease and death, and in a positive state are necessary for health, but the energy balancing system is very resilient. The more developed the energy balancing system the more stress it can handle, because it can take in a large volume of imbalanced energy and balance it, converting it into positive energy the body can use.

That's all fine and dandy. But there's a reason why we live longer today than ever before. There are no such things as "chakras" and "qi," and any of that energy nonsense.
 

greenfairy

philosopher wood nymph
Joined
May 25, 2012
Messages
4,024
MBTI Type
iNfj
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
That's all fine and dandy. But there's a reason why we live longer today than ever before. There are no such things as "chakras" and "qi," and any of that energy nonsense.

I think you'll find the reasons we live longer than in the past are contained in what I wrote, if you look closely. And energy isn't just a theory; in classical physics mass and energy are interchangeable. The way people understand it is what is in dispute, but in some sense it is indisputable that everything is energy.

What do you think energy is then? Do you understand physics? Nutrition talks about food in terms of energy input and output. Why should food be energy but our bodies not be? Our bodies are energy input for other organisms. Adequate nutrition is a question of proper energy balance. It's really not a stretch to say that psychology is energy balance.
 

JocktheMotie

Habitual Fi LineStepper
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
8,491
there'snoneedtobeupsetthere'snoneedtobeupsetthere'snoneedtobeupsetthere'snoneedtobeupsetthere'snoneedtobeupsetthere'snoneedtobeupsetTHERE'SNONEEDTOBEUPSET

*breathesintopaperbag*
 

Magic Poriferan

^He pronks, too!
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
14,081
MBTI Type
Yin
Enneagram
One
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I think it's pretty keen that an entire field based on a mistaken premise has been so effective.
 

Blackmail!

Gotta catch you all!
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
3,020
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w8
It's total nonsense. Dangerous nonsense I should even say.

This plea for "alternative medecines" is extremely suspect in its origin, given the weird and wild theories it pretends to describe.
 

Blackmail!

Gotta catch you all!
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
3,020
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w8
OK: this delirious paper about the "so-called" dangers of science and modern medicine comes from a creepy cult called the "Universal White Brotherhood".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_White_Brotherhood

So people please: avoid this at all cost: your sanity, your health and your money are at stake and those people are VERY DANGEROUS.

I just hope our dear JAVO is not one of them.
 

kquirk

amateur cartographer
Joined
Jul 28, 2013
Messages
221
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
593
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
It's good sometimes to revisit our past, to reexamine things we start to take for granted as history becomes condensed into constantly repeated bullet points in introductory course lectures. Even thought science as an idea is perfect, people aren't, and we can make mistakes along the way. That's why theories are compared to experience and experiment countless times to make sure they hold up.

The basic premise of the excerpt quoted here is seriously flawed, however. Yes, healthy tissue is better at fighting disease than compromised or unhealthy tissue. That does not mean that "germs" (bacteria, viruses, fungi, prions, etc) don't cause disease. One of Pasteurs's contemporaries, Robert Koch, proved this. When there is a disease caused by a microorganism, it is isolated from the diseased tissue, grown in pure culture, and introduced to a healthy host. It causes the same disease in the previously healthy host.

Pasteur might have been wrong about a lot of stuff. So were Newton and Einstein. We don't have to throw out hundreds of years of science because of it.
 

greenfairy

philosopher wood nymph
Joined
May 25, 2012
Messages
4,024
MBTI Type
iNfj
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I don't think science is mistaken, only incomplete.

It's only common sense that people survived most of history by more than trial and error, and EVERY indigenous culture has used medicinal plants pretty effectively for longer than modern medicine has been in existence.
 

/DG/

silentigata ano (profile)
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
4,602
I think you'll find the reasons we live longer than in the past are contained in what I wrote, if you look closely. And energy isn't just a theory; in classical physics mass and energy are interchangeable. The way people understand it is what is in dispute, but in some sense it is indisputable that everything is energy.

What do you think energy is then? Do you understand physics? Nutrition talks about food in terms of energy input and output. Why should food be energy but our bodies not be? Our bodies are energy input for other organisms. Adequate nutrition is a question of proper energy balance. It's really not a stretch to say that psychology is energy balance.

Do you even understand physics?

Jesus Christ! I don't even know if I should attempt to reason with you.
 

greenfairy

philosopher wood nymph
Joined
May 25, 2012
Messages
4,024
MBTI Type
iNfj
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Do you even understand physics?

Jesus Christ! I don't even know if I should attempt to reason with you.
I think I understand it at least as well as you, and I agree a debate would not be fruitful.
 

21%

You have a choice!
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
3,224
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
I don't think science is mistaken, only incomplete.

It's only common sense that people survived most of history by more than trial and error, and EVERY indigenous culture has used medicinal plants pretty effectively for longer than modern medicine has been in existence.
I agree with this. I feel that there's something very important that we don't know yet.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
Yes, modern medicine is based on evidence and reason, while pre-modern medicine was based on faith.

Of course civilization has its discontents which misleads us to alternative medicine, a romantic form of medicine, a faith based medicine, because it makes us feel better.
 

Evo

Unapologetic being
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
3,160
MBTI Type
XNTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
[MENTION=71]JAVO[/MENTION]

My beliefs about a lot of things that are of any substance, are sadly very controversial. So I'm not going to spill them all out on here.

(disclosure: what I'm about to say is not 100% or "always" true, and I'm not here to debate anything) But all I have to say is that: our bodies are free of dis-ease when our blood is at a more alkaline PH.

Pretty much everything, except fruits and veggies break down into the blood as a more acidic PH. Therefore, yea, I think it's the environment that we keep in our own bodies. I don't have any articles on that...though, I'm sorry. I came across this information when I was heavy into understanding why our bodies have diseases.

I also know that there are ways that you can heal yourself by engaging the sodium - potassium pumps (which create the energy in each cell [MENTION=15773]greenfairy[/MENTION]) To stop your own blood proteins from spilling into your cells. (which then, is what causes the PH of your blood to become more acidic.)

I get all of that info from Dr. West, who has sadly passed away.(disclosure: he was also very religious and incorporated his religion into his practices that he taught....so it might not be for everyone...I mostly ignored that information, until I could understand the biology behind it.) So I recommend his son now who is alive. I'm not on my computer right now so I don't have a link. His son is boring to listen to but he teaches holistic medicine. Which is sorta, kinda, along that lines of what I believe I guess.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
But all I have to say is that: our bodies are free of dis-ease when our blood is at a more alkaline PH.

Pretty much everything, except fruits and veggies break down into the blood as a more basic PH. Therefore, yea, I think it's the environment that we keep in our own bodies. I don't have any articles on that...though, I'm sorry. I came across this information when I was heavy into understanding why our bodies have diseases.

I also know that there are ways that you can heal yourself by engaging the sodium - potassium pumps (which create the energy in each cell [MENTION=15773]greenfairy[/MENTION]) To stop your own blood proteins from spilling into your cells. (which then, is what causes the PH of your blood to become more basic.)

I get all of that info from Dr. West, who has sadly passed away.(disclosure: he was also very religious and incorporated his religion into his practices that he taught....so it might not be for everyone...I mostly ignored that information, until I could understand the biology behind it.) So I recommend his son now who is alive. I'm not on my computer right now so I don't have a link. His son is boring to listen to but he teaches holistic medicine. Which is sorta, kinda, along that lines of what I believe I guess.

Pehaps if you studied biology rather than the superstition of holistic medicine, you would discover our bodies maintain a very fine balance between acidity and alkalinity.

So to say our bodies are free of disease when our blood is more alkaline is a superstition not based on evidence or reason. It is an article of faith masquerading as biology.
 

Evo

Unapologetic being
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
Messages
3,160
MBTI Type
XNTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Pehaps if you studied biology rather than the superstition of holistic medicine, you would discover our bodies maintain a very fine balance between acidity and alkalinity.

So to say our bodies are free of disease when our blood is more alkaline is a superstition not based on evidence or reason. It is an article of faith masquerading as biology.

http://drbenkim.com/ph-body-blood-foods-acid-alkaline.htm

If you read that article entirely, it gets to my point.

Such as when it says:

When people encourage you to "alkalize your blood," most of them mean that you should eat plenty of foods that have an alkaline-forming effect on your system. The reason for making this suggestion is that the vast majority of highly processed foods - like white flour products and white sugar - have an acid-forming effect on your system, and if you spend years eating a poor diet that is mainly acid-forming, you will overwork some of the buffering systems mentioned above to a point where you could create undesirable changes in your health.
 
Top