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  1. #51
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    I like the idea of questioning the status quo paradigm, and I like the integration of tactics from other methodologies of healing than Western medicine.

    Though, I am not sure works like this article are really the best way to go about that.

    We do need to be careful that economic drives aren't leading medicine in certain areas. It's not a system that can be run on supply and demand.

    Additionally, certainly there are mistakes in modern medicine, and I think part of that is being realized in the shift to more "natural" childbirth settings in obstetrics - more comfort, more soothing lighting, more quiet, less harsh light and cold metal and machinery. Some exposure to germs is good, and I am in favor of moderate immunization for the same reason.

    I like the idea of "holistic" healing, in the sense of treating the whole person in its context. I think environmental health is an important part of personal health; we need to take care of the planet for its own sake, and for biodiversity's sake, but also for our health's sake. We need to attend to our stress levels and our intrapersonal wellbeing. We need to attend to the health of our relationships with our family and friends. We need to maintain positive, safe spousal relationships. We need to educate ourselves on how to take care of ourselves and our surroundings and live accordingly. And so on.

    There are times, like in cardio surgery, when there needs to be bright harsh light and artificially-induced sterility and strange chemicals and metal and plastic implements and all sorts of bizarre, removed technologies. Left to its natural devices, the body would otherwise die; we need the artificial to preserve it "unnaturally". But as others have pointed out, the body is a self-cleaning and self-sustaining mechanism for the most part, and encouraging overall wellbeing will do the most to preserve health.

    But unfortunately for scientific progress, we cannot see the beyond the bounds of time, so we do the best we can.

  2. #52
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Astrology, homeopathy, alternative medicine and mbti are all of a piece.
    Lol I thought you were going to say "all of a piece of shit".

  3. #53
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    This thread brings to mind:






    Personally I prefer a blend of well-researched natural home remedies for certain things, also well regarded in the medical field, like witch hazel, and turmeric, etc. But overall if it's something serious, I have faith in diagnostic testing (combined with personal research, as even physicians can miss things). It's not like I have access to labs to look at blood or anything else under a microscope, so, works for me.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

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    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

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  4. #54
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    No, it is rather clear, and this total eradication is more related to two facts which have nothing to do with "improved health and sanitation practices":

    1/ The smallpox virus is transmitted only through humans, it cannot survive in other animals, other places or other kind of bodies like most other virus. It's not a zoonosis.

    2/ In that case, the vaccine was so powerful that many considered that the immunity would last for decades, or even for life.

    Thus, in this specific case, it was possible to eradicate it.

    You seem to see grey areas even when there is none. Clearly, "you want to believe". If it's a matter of personal faith (like what your sources and article seem to imply), then be honest with it.
    Your assertion isn't supported by the mortality data.

    Clearly you want to believe that modern medicine is infallible and Truth. Maybe some of us here can help you deprogram from this cult?

  5. #55
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    Your assertion isn't supported by the mortality data.

    Clearly you want to believe that modern medicine is infallible and Truth. Maybe some of us here can help you deprogram from this cult?
    Modern science and epistemology aren't a cult, just in case you weren't aware.

    But again, if you "want to believe", you have the right to do so, no matter how odd and irrational your beliefs are. If you want to endanger yourself and your loved ones, then so be it: Natural selection is part of evolution anyway, and there is no vaccine against New Age quackery.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  6. #56
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    I'm aware of one major medical theory that's garbage but because it's been around for 90 years, it's hard to topple despite lots of evidence against it. The Food Pyramid is still based on the Cholesterol Theory of Heart Disease, which seemed like a plausible theory when it was first proposed, but today, we know so much more about its limitations.

    Why Cholesterol doesn't cause Heart Disease: The Evidence (From Kilmer McCully's "The Heart Revolution")

    1. The Eskimos of Greenland and the Masai of Africa both eat tons of meat (laden with saturated fats and cholesterol), but there isn't much heart disease in these two populations.
    2. The French Paradox: The French similarly eat lots of meat but they don't seem to be affected either.
    3. In one study of heart disease patients, it was found that only 15% of them had high cholesterol.
    4. The incidence of heart disease has dropped over 50% since the 1960s, but the blood cholesterol levels have only dropped 5% in that same period.
    5. Feeding animals pure cholesterol (as opposed to oxidized cholesterol) does not result in arteriosclerosis.

    According to Dr. McCully, the true cause of heart disease is an amino acid called homocysteine. I'd love to present the theory (perhaps in another thread) if anyone is interested.

  7. #57
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    Your assertion isn't supported by the mortality data.

    Clearly you want to believe that modern medicine is infallible and Truth. Maybe some of us here can help you deprogram from this cult?
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Modern science and epistemology aren't a cult, just in case you weren't aware.

    But again, if you "want to believe", you have the right to do so, no matter how odd and irrational your beliefs are. If you want to endanger yourself and your loved ones, then so be it: Natural selection is part of evolution anyway, and there is no vaccine against New Age quackery.
    If my assertions are irrational, then why not show it by providing historical data proving that the smallpox vaccine caused the eradication of smallpox? If true, it seems like a fairly simple thing to prove. At the very least, you should be able to produce some evidence correlating the two, right? And, you're the one who brought up the smallpox vaccine, so this is your home turf.

  8. #58
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    As someone who is thoroughly familiar with the medical profession, I agree that it's not perfect. But things don't have to be perfect in order to work.

    There's been a very big push in the past 15 years or so to focus on the treatment of chronic disease. Chronically ill patients treated with expensive therapies equal very big money. So there's a lot of companies trying to treat multiple diseases with certain classes of drugs and their approach is more along the "it should work!" when older, cheaper agents do just as well, if not better. The biologics are a good example of this.

    There is little incentive to do research looking for actual cures because no one wants to kill the goose. One very unfortunate side-effect (no pun intended!) of this is the fact that we have a very serious problem on our hands with antibiotic-resistant bacteria...the biggest being Enterobacteriaceae...and no new antibiotics in the works.

    I think doctors and researchers know enough to get good ideas and form good practices on some things...not all. They managed to get hormone-replacement therapy and the cause/treatment for ulcers very wrong and a lot of that was driven by money and egos. I don't think it's all wrong, though...not by far. I can see what JAVO is pointing out and I agree with some of it. But I also see what Blackmail is saying and agree with that, too. I'd never take the kind of risks that I saw outline in those articles but I want to be very sure about the kind of treatments I receive. Just another balancing act, imo.

  9. #59
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I'm aware of one major medical theory that's garbage but because it's been around for 90 years, it's hard to topple despite lots of evidence against it. The Food Pyramid is still based on the Cholesterol Theory of Heart Disease, which seemed like a plausible theory when it was first proposed, but today, we know so much more about its limitations.

    Why Cholesterol doesn't cause Heart Disease: The Evidence (From Kilmer McCully's "The Heart Revolution")

    1. The Eskimos of Greenland and the Masai of Africa both eat tons of meat (laden with saturated fats and cholesterol), but there isn't much heart disease in these two populations.
    2. The French Paradox: The French similarly eat lots of meat but they don't seem to be affected either.
    3. In one study of heart disease patients, it was found that only 15% of them had high cholesterol.
    4. The incidence of heart disease has dropped over 50% since the 1960s, but the blood cholesterol levels have only dropped 5% in that same period.
    5. Feeding animals pure cholesterol (as opposed to oxidized cholesterol) does not result in arteriosclerosis.

    According to Dr. McCully, the true cause of heart disease is an amino acid called Homocysteine. I'd love to present the theory (perhaps in another thread) if anyone is interested.
    I wouldn't mind reading about the theory.

    Hmm.

    May I ask...does this particular doctor/theory say that the amino acid is at a higher concentration because of things such as:

    -malabsorption of B12
    -suboptimal intake of B vitamins
    -reduced kidney function
    -medications that reduce the absorption of vitamins
    -lifestyle choices such as smoking, coffee consumption, excessive alcohol intake
    -and/or lack of exercise, being obese, and having high stress?

    Instead of assigning fault to things that are high in amino acids found in meats, seafood, dairy products, etc...?

  10. #60
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev
    I wouldn't mind reading about the theory.
    Thanks for your interest.

    Dr McCully first made the connection between homocysteine and arteriosclerosis when he examined two cases of homocystinuria, a newly discovered disease in the 1960s. This condition is marked by high concentrations of homocysteine in the urine or mentally retarded children. Dr McCully discovered that in both cases, the children had the stiff arteries of people afflicted with arteriosclerosis, but without the cholesterol plaques. One case involved a defect in folic acid and vitamin B6 metabolism and the second case involved a defect in vitamin B12 metabolism.

    The theory is that elevated homocysteine levels cause heart disease. Vitamin B6, B12, and folic acid all reduce homocysteine levels in the blood.
    Dairy products increase the risk of heart disease not because it contains the cholesterol or fats but because dairy proteins contain higher levels of methionine, which is the precursor of homocysteine. The reason why there is a correlation between LDL-cholesterol levels and heart disease is because LDL is the carrier of homocysteine. The reason why the Masai and the Eskimos don't get heart disease (in any great quantity) is because they also eat plenty of folic acid, B6, and B12. These two populations don't eat processed foods, which contain significantly reduced levels of the B vitamins. The French eat lots of organ meats and vegetables which contain high levels of the B vitamins.

    The reason for the huge drop in heart disease from the 1960s level is because breakfast cereal companies started fortifying their products with the B vitamins. The homocysteine theory also explains why low thyroid hormone levels correlate with arteriosclerosis. Low thyroid levels result in higher homocysteine levels. Statins work because they reduce LDL levels and LDL is the transport vehicle for homocysteine.

    Homocysteine causes arteriosclerosis by causing skeletal muscle cells in the arteries to multiply forming the plaques. Cholesterol and fat then deposit in these plaques. Experiments with animals show that cholesterol deposits only exist in the arteries after they've been fed butter.

    May I ask...does this particular doctor/theory say that the amino acid is at a higher concentration because of things such as:

    -malabsorption of B12
    -suboptimal intake of B vitamins
    You are correct about the B vitamins, but Dr. McCully mostly blames this nutrient deficiency on processed foods. He claims that certain processes like heat sterilization, canning, and irradiation all reduce B6 and folic acid levels significantly, up to 80%.

    Because I'm going by memory, I'm forgetting some of the studies he mentions that support his theory. He mentions that homocysteine levels correlate well with heart disease. Places with lots of heart disease also have high homocysteine levels. Animals on a low folic acid diet develop heart disease. I'm missing a lot more of the evidence, but you get the gist. If anyone wants actual references to scientific papers, I could check out the book next week and post the sources.
    Senator Rand Paul is alive because of modern medicine and because his attacker punches like a girl.

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