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  1. #31
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    The article appears to be endorsed by Suzanne Humphries who has earned an MD, as it resides on her site and is referenced by her as explaining the issues very well.
    If you try to quote many sentences of your so-called "Dr Suzanne Humphries" (check -> http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Suzanne_Humphries ) and track most of her sources, you will be sent to the infamous "Centre de Sèvres" and especially Olivier Clerc. And this guy is actually the great guru (master) of the dangerous cult called the "Universal White Brotherhood".
    These people have been accused of brainwashing people to extort money, and they have been charged for false medical allegations that have caused the deterioration of their followers's health.

    She's also extensively quoting Robert O. Young, and she calls him a "doctor" [Dr Robert Young], a diploma this impostor never really had: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_O._Young

    "Legal issues

    In 1995, Young allegedly drew blood from two women, told them they were ill, and then sold them herbal products to treat these illnesses. He was charged with two third-degree felony counts of practicing medicine without a license, but pled guilty to a reduced misdemeanor charge.[11][21] Young argued that he had never claimed to be a medical doctor, that the women had entrapped him by asking to be part of his research, and that he "looked at the women's blood and simply gave them some nutritional advice."[11]
    In 2001, Young was again charged with a felony in Utah, after a cancer patient alleged that Young told her to stop chemotherapy and to substitute one of his products to treat her cancer. Subsequently, when an undercover agent visited Young, he allegedly analyzed her blood and prescribed a liquid diet. The case was taken to preliminary trial, but charges were dropped after the prosecutor stated that he could not find enough people who felt cheated by Young.[21] Young dismissed the arrests as "harassment" and stated that he moved to California because the legal climate there was more tolerant.[21] On May 12, 2011 Quackwatch published a critical analysis of Young's qualifications and practices.[25]

    Kim Tinkham

    In 2007, Kim Tinkham, diagnosed with stage three breast cancer, adopted Young's protocols before appearing on The Oprah Winfrey Show. She enthusiastically promoted them on her website "cancerangel.org". A 2008 press release from Young contained her assertion that she was "cancer free by all medical terms" as diagnosed by her own doctors.[26] Young was criticized following Tinkham's death from cancer on December 7, 2010."


    And about the strange ideas promoted by this quack doctor, let me recommend you this critical link:

    http://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/young3.html



    ------------


    On typo-c, a forum dedicated to psychology, you have a lot of vulnerable people who should be easy to trick. I can only wonder why you're making obvious advertisements for such dangerous pseudo-new-age cults.
    Of course, you're a grown-up and as such, you're free to do so. But what will happen when Raelians, Scientologist, or the next David Koresh will appear here?
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  2. #32
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    This stuff is a brilliant example of learning just enough science to use words that convince people without a science background, but not quite enough science to actually understand how the body works. It's not quite as bad as the anti-vaxxers in terms of the harm caused, but it's in the same ballbark of nonsense masquerading as science.

    The biology you think you're understanding is, well, not biology. It's quackery.

    source: I do biology for a living. Or I will, when I finish grad school.

    I was interested by the OP as well, but I'm not really sure what you want us to take from it. The terrain thing is mostly nonsense, although there is an element of truth to it with regards to the role of the immune system and overall health affecting susceptibility to disease. And cancer is a great example of the body initiating disease. But it doesn't disprove germ theory - you won't magically develop smallpox or whatever without being exposed to the virus causing it.

    I'm not surprised that early scientists were wrong sometimes. Science is ever-changing, and a lot of natural processes were misunderstood back then. Scientists who are right about one thing can be (and almost always are) wrong about others. Darwin was wrong about a number of details about evolution, for example, although he had some very good insights that allowed scientists to build on his foundation to develop the understanding we have today. Scientists being wrong in the past has very little to do with the science done now.
    I'm not the best person to articulate ideas, nor do I care to discuss much about this with other people. But I don't think I'm wrong in saying that when blood protiens are not where they're supposed to be it causes stress to the system. Stress is a pretty general word, but either way it causes damage to our bodies. If you close ur finger in a door, it will hurt. If you hold your finger in that exact spot until the pain goes away...you are stopping more blood protiens from entering the cells. Which this stops more damage...If you hold your finger long enough...you wont even get a black and blue mark.

    Source: experience

    I obviously think that when there's an emergency modern medicine is awesome sauce. But I don't think that we need pills and shit for everything.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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  3. #33
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    I'm not the best person to articulate ideas, nor do I care to discuss much about this with other people. But I don't think I'm wrong in saying that when blood protiens are not where they're supposed to be it causes stress to the system. Stress is a pretty general word, but either way it causes damage to our bodies. If you close ur finger in a door, it will hurt. If you hold your finger in that exact spot until the pain goes away...you are stopping more blood protiens from entering the cells. Which this stops more damage...If you hold your finger long enough...you wont even get a black and blue mark.

    Source: experience

    I obviously think that when there's an emergency modern medicine is awesome sauce. But I don't think that we need pills and shit for everything.
    Bruises are formed from blood leaking out into the tissues when your blood vessels rupture. Holding the spot long enough for the blood to clot and seal the blood vessels will prevent a bruise, since it'll prevent the blood from leaking out of the injured vessels.

    This has nothing to do with "blood proteins", blood pH, pain, or stress. It also can't be generalized to injuries that don't involve bleeding, for what should be obvious reasons.
    -end of thread-

  4. #34
    Senior Member two cents's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    Did you notice that the article is hosted on the site of someone who has done exactly that?
    Nope. Going through all that schooling doesn't guarantee you can't be a crackpot, it just makes it less likely.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    Are you aware that the FDA approves drugs and vaccines which sometimes turn out not to be so safe and effective?
    Yes, I am. The trouble is usually safety rather than effectiveness. The reason we find out that something is either harmful or isn't living up to its promise is because clinical outcomes are reported and continuously evaluated. And then people are told "oops, new evidence just came in, don't do that anymore (or don't do it if you have this other condition)". Is there a similar system in operation with alternative medicine remedies? Do the people who peddle them gather safety and effectiveness data and, if they find problems, stop peddling the remedies, and tell other people not to sell them or take them? The fact that the FDA can admit and correct its errors should give you more confidence in it: no system works perfectly and it's better to stick with one that can make course corrections, rather than one that doubles down and tells you things like "this worked for thousands of years, if it's not working for you you are doing it wrong!"

    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    I think that's fairly clear.
    No, actually, it isn't. Divergent from what?

    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    I'm quite aware because I'm surrounded by it every day. How about you? And, are you aware of how much personal, professional, and financial bias affects the supposed rigor with which medical research is conducted?
    Are you saying you do medical research? I hope not. I hope people doing medical research can manage their way around a piece of obvious woo like germ theory denialism.

    Yes, I AM aware of how much personal, professional, and financial bias affects medical research. Are you suggesting that there are NO personal, professional, or financial biases and inscentives for people who work in "alternative medicine"? (I could ask whether you think those biases affect their research... except they aren'd doing research)

    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    I have plenty of evidence, but the most convincing evidence is that which you find yourself in an open-minded inquiry, rather than trying to win what you perceive as an online debate.
    Why is "trying to win an online debate" automatically make me impervious to considering evidence? If you have evidence that "alternative medicine" is being done exclusively by ego-less saints with perfect objectivity (unlike EVERY OTHER field of human endeavor, no less), go ahead and amaze me. Just be aware that this qualifies as an extraordinary claim, that, therefore, requires extraordinary evidence. If you have it, bring it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    I don't see any ad hominem against Pasteur himself. His work is criticized.
    Oh, right, saying that a scientist plagiarised his work and that it is totally unscientific (I guess that means he made up all the experiments or something) is not ad hominem against a scientist. I think there's room for disagreement, but you know what? It's unimportant. Do you know the sheer numbers of people that have investigated various bacteria, viruses, amoeba, and fungi, and the exact mechanisms by which they cause disease? Pasteur may have come up with germ theory (and we now have things like pasteruzation thanks to it), but it no longer matters, and whatever flaws were in his work have long become irrelevant. The science of germs has moved on lightyears since then. Experiments have been replicated all over the world by people who never had a reason to give a flying fuck about each other. There are scientists in labs doing it right this second, and they are not all cribbing from each other or making it up out of thin air.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    Is pasteurized milk free of all Listeria bacteria? Applying Occam's Razor, one could simply smell and then taste the milk to find out if the bacteria count is high and likely to cause illness to those with weakened immune systems or due to bacterial toxins.
    Are you suggesting you possess tastebuds that can sense the presence of Listeria? Or any other pathogens that can be transmitted by raw milk, like tuberculosis? Or that you can smell it? (BTW, you might get Listeria and not even notice, but if you are a pregnant woman it can damage or kill your fetus.) None of these pathogens are what makes milk go sour, and bacterial toxins aren't necessarily released by all bacteria or in all stages of bacterial lifecycles.

    And yes, pasteurized milk is free of Listeria.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    Perhaps the evidence is so "overwhelming" that no one bothers to question it?
    Perhaps. Perhaps that's a good thing: at some point you have to accept that something is real, stop wasting your time verifying the obvious, and move on to a more productive activity. If every time you think you might have enough evidence that the sky is blue you have to double check, that's a problem. Do you also disbelieve absolutely everything you see and absolutely everything anyone else tells you? Or does any certainty cause a knee-jerk suspicion?

    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    Are you sure that's the only possible way? Maybe we could cast aside preconceived notions and use the scientific method to develop a better theory which more accurately reflects reality and is even more clinically useful than the partially correct germ theory?
    What preconceived notions? They aren't that "pre" conceived -- they are fairly new, and they were rigorously tested when they were new, and there's overwhelming evidence that they are correct, and NO EVIDENCE they aren't. There AREN'T any competing theories that explain clinical findings better. The clinical findings are already sufficiently explained.

    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    Do you think the medical doctor and holistic practitioner hosting the article is delusional? (http://drsuzanne.net/)
    Yes, I do. However, I have a competing/parallel theory: he could be profiting from bold-faced lies sold to the gullible.
    And that's my two cents on the subject.

  5. #35
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I think it's pretty keen that an entire field based on a mistaken premise has been so effective.
    That's really what it boils down to. Much of what we have discovered has been through experimentation and accidental discoveries. That doesn't really invalidate them though.

    As far as the OP.. Our bodies are ticking time bombs. We all know from birth that every single living thing will expire. I suppose you could think of the 'terrain' of our bodies as being flawed and that causing disease--since many of our diseases are auto-immune, or things that outside sources have absolutely not caused (or, more commonly, been only an indirect cause) and such.

    But germs are still germs. Germs, in general, are not the problem because we have a plethora of them. They're the most common living thing around, and many of them are absolutely harmless and in fact harmlessness is beneficial much of the time. That doesn't mean that germs have nothing to cause damage, or that you shouldn't wash your hands or something like that. Modern medicine allows us to see what those guys couldn't, and to put into actual pictures what those guys could not even begin to understand.

    The truth is, we're rotting from the inside out because we're living and living things expire just like non-living things. But that doesn't mean that this is the source of disease and treatment. It is a factor in it at best, but not at all a solution or something to look toward.

    Even if all the subjects on Pasteur plagiarizing things is true and he was really just a royal ass, someone invented real techniques to make food and drink safer from germs. And that actually worked in comparison to looking at the human body itself. We live longer, have less poisoning, and give our immune systems less stress and overload overall.
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  6. #36
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    If germ theory and vaccines are useless, then how do you explain the total eradication of smallpox?

    It seems pretty effective to me.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  7. #37
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Astrology, homeopathy, alternative medicine and mbti are all of a piece.

  8. #38
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by two cents View Post
    The fact that the FDA can admit and correct its errors should give you more confidence in it: no system works perfectly and it's better to stick with one that can make course corrections, rather than one that doubles down and tells you things like "this worked for thousands of years, if it's not working for you you are doing it wrong!"
    But if it really did work for thousands of years, then it would be pretty silly to need an organization like the FDA to tell us what to do with it, wouldn't it?

    Are you saying you do medical research? I hope not. I hope people doing medical research can manage their way around a piece of obvious woo like germ theory denialism.
    Assumptions are funny, but they get tiresome eventually. Your statements demonstrate to me that you actually haven't taken the time to understand the perspective being presented before rushing to a defense. You've defended things which really weren't threatened, and analyzed when it would've been more productive to integrate. These are some of the same flaws of modern medicine and science. You should hope not. What would happen to modern medicine and science if someone involved with research decided to think outside the dogmatic boxes instituted by the pedantic machinations of academia?


    Are you suggesting you possess tastebuds that can sense the presence of Listeria? Or any other pathogens that can be transmitted by raw milk, like tuberculosis? Or that you can smell it? (BTW, you might get Listeria and not even notice, but if you are a pregnant woman it can damage or kill your fetus.) None of these pathogens are what makes milk go sour, and bacterial toxins aren't necessarily released by all bacteria or in all stages of bacterial lifecycles.

    And yes, pasteurized milk is free of Listeria.
    Well sure, the milk could have any number of things in it, just like lettuce, melons, and deli meat (all of which often have Listeria). None of those are pasteurized either, yet we still consume them. Taste and smell just prevent exposure to something which is no longer in a consumable state.

    Actually, pasteurized milk has plenty of live bacteria still in it, sometimes including Listeria:

    After reviewing these studies, a World Health Organization Working Group on foodborne listeriosis recently concluded that "pasteurization is a safe process which reduces the number of L. monocytogenes occurring in raw milk to levels that do not pose an appreciable risk to human health"
    Source: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001316.htm

    Also, most people do not get sick if they consume something containing Listeria bacteria:

    What should you do if you've eaten a food recalled because of Listeria contamination?

    The risk of an individual person developing a Listeria infection after
    consumption of a contaminated product is small. If you have eaten a
    contaminated product and do not have any symptoms, no tests or treatment
    are recommended, if you have any questions or are in a high-risk group
    contact your primary care physician for guidance. If you are in a high-risk
    group, have eaten the contaminated product, and within 2 months of eating it
    you become ill with fever or other symptoms of listeriosis, you should contact
    your physician immediately and inform him or her that you were exposed to a
    product contaminated with Listeria.
    Source: http://dec.alaska.gov/eh/docs/vet/Da...06_14_2011.pdf

    Hmm... sounds similar to the points of the article linked in the OP.

    However, I have a competing/parallel theory: he could be profiting from bold-faced lies sold to the gullible.
    She actually.

    Hopefully I can get back with more points, but for now, I'm exhausted and need to take a cult Kool Aid break.

  9. #39
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    If germ theory and vaccines are useless, then how do you explain the total eradication of smallpox?

    It seems pretty effective to me.
    How do you explain it?

    And, would you like some delicious Kool Aid?

  10. #40
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    What's your goal with this, @JAVO? I know you're a pretty reasonable guy so I'm not sure why you're posting this kind of stuff. Devil's advocate day or something?

    I'm trying to rein in my anger at this for the sake of discussion, but it makes me so mad to see people like the guy she talks about in her first paragraph victimizing cancer patients who are desperate to live and don't have the scientific background to understand how much total bullshit this is. It's morally reprehensible if the guy has any idea about biology (because then you're knowingly selling snake oil), and even more reprehensible if he doesn't, since nobody without a strong knowledge of how the damn body works should be directing medical treatment in the first place. Doctors and science aren't perfect by a long shot, but they're also considerably far removed from leeches and tonics. Which this stuff basically is, with the added benefit of interfering with real, proven to work treatments. Or if nothing else, it's false hope.
    -end of thread-

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