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The Fat Acceptance Movement

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IMO, we should delay judgment until the scientific evidence delineates a clear conclusion.

And science has already answered.

Unless you truly have a genetic predisposition towards obesity (less than 2% of people on average), everything else is agribusiness profits, car fetishism, cowardice, lack of will, lack of education and self-indulgence.
 

subwayrider

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And science has already answered.

Unless you truly have a genetic predisposition towards obesity (less than 2% of people on average), everything else is agribusiness profits, car fetishism, cowardice, lack of will, lack of education and self-indulgence.

Saying a thing with certainty in no way alters its truth value.

Not that I'm informed enough to debate with you, I'm just extremely averse to any displays of certainty. You could still be wrong, though I don't think I'm in any position to judge that.
 
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It may sound easy, but that's one of the facet of scientific truth apparently nobody wants to hear, even you.

There are dozens, and dozens, and dozens peer-reviewed articles that would prove this.

Or are you implying that people had less metabolic problems, just two decades ago? That we were less "stressed" then?
No, we're basically and physiologically the same. It's our way of living that has changed, it's the way we consume alimentary products that has changed.
The fact that you use the 2 words "scientific truth" together shows that you don't know what you're talking about. Correlation does not imply causation and NONE OF THOSE STUDIES HAVE CLAIMED THAT IT IS THE SOLE CAUSE OF OBESITY. It is widely acknowledged that this is a multi-factorial problem and you do no one favours by over-simplifying the phenomenon.

Yes people were a lot less stressed just 2 decades ago. We were also a lot less unhappy. Those stats and studies are also out there, but you're blinded by your insistence on blaming fat people entirely for their problems. 2 decades ago we didn't have a 24/7 lifestyle. We worked 9ish to 5ish. The media/fear circle was less vicious. Education was the way to a job. These things have all changed in the last 2 decades. Psychology affects physiology and vice versa. This is also well-known, you can go search for those studies. Our physiology has not evolved to keep up with changes in our psychology or lifestyle. That is yet another factor that contributes to the obesity epidemic.
 
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And science has already answered.

Unless you truly have a genetic predisposition towards obesity (less than 2% of people on average), everything else is agribusiness profits, car fetishism, cowardice, lack of will, lack of education and self-indulgence.
Science has not answered any questions. If anything, epigenetics and recent studies of biomarkers associated with metabolic problems and obesity completely debunks your claims and tells us that it is a lot more complicated than our current understanding.
 

subwayrider

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Science has not answered any questions. If anything, epigenetics and recent studies of biomarkers associated with metabolic problems and obesity completely debunks your claims and tells us that it is a lot more complicated than our current understanding.

Everything is extremely complicated; it's exhausting.

I am utterly unable to understand people who assert certainty.
 

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:rotfl:
The fact that you use the 2 words "scientific truth" together shows that you don't know what you're talking about. Correlation does not imply causation and NONE OF THOSE STUDIES HAVE CLAIMED THAT IT IS THE SOLE CAUSE OF OBESITY. It is widely acknowledged that this is a multi-factorial problem and you do no one favours by over-simplifying the phenomenon.

Yes people were a lot less stressed just 2 decades ago. We were also a lot less unhappy. Those stats and studies are also out there, but you're blinded by your insistence on blaming fat people entirely for their problems. 2 decades ago we didn't have a 24/7 lifestyle. We worked 9ish to 5ish. The media/fear circle was less vicious. Education was the way to a job. These things have all changed in the last 2 decades. Psychology affects physiology and vice versa. This is also well-known, you can go search for those studies. Our physiology has not evolved to keep up with changes in our psychology or lifestyle. That is yet another factor that contributes to the obesity epidemic.

Speaking of a so-called "scientific truth" is indeed a provocation. I hoped you would notice it.

But unfortunately you didn't get the point.

I'm also a scientist myself, and I currently work on obesity related issues (through urbanism).
You seem to have a personal grudge against the "system" (I've read your posts in "Science is a religion", and you made me laugh). I have not. :rotfl:

And again, you have dozens, and dozens, and dozens of peer-reviewed articles that will prove my point. But of course, if you do not trust the "system", then it's meaningless to discuss it. :rofl1:
 

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Science has not answered any questions. If anything, epigenetics and recent studies of biomarkers associated with metabolic problems and obesity completely debunks your claims and tells us that it is a lot more complicated than our current understanding.

If you say so...

Once again, if you were right, then two decades ago, obesity rate should have been more or less the same.
(And believe me, two decades ago, the amount of stress we had to endure was the same)

It's not. Tell me why!! :harhar:
 
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Speaking of a so-called "scientific truth" is indeed a provocation. I hoped you would notice it.

But unfortunately you didn't get the point.

I'm also a scientist myself, and I currently work on obesity related issues (through urbanism). And it's not because you're a total loser (I've read your posts on "Science is a religion") that your words should be taken for granted.
You seem to have a personal grudge against the "system". I have not.

And again, you have dozens, and dozens, and dozens of peer-reviewed articles that will prove my point. But of course, if you do not trust the systme, then it's meaningless to discuss it.

It is meaningless to discuss this, then. I can agree on that. It's not a personal grudge and I may well be a loser. However, as a scientist it would be irresponsible of me to claim to know the entirety of a problem. Just because lots of people interpret the data the same way does not mean that it's true. Similarly, there are dozens and dozens of peer-reviewed articles about metabolism, hormone problems and epigenetics that show that they all play roles. I am not discounting that environment and personal choice play a factor - of course they all do. But I am saying that the situation is rarely clear cut especially when considering people on an individual level. It's all well and good to say that these are trends on a sociological level. It's another to say that a person is the trend. But whatever, it's obvious your provoking me and I need a nap. Adieu.
 

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Everything is extremely complicated; it's exhausting.

I am utterly unable to understand people who assert certainty.

Not everything is always complicated.

Sometimes, you have very simple patterns of action->consequence.

You walk more, then statistically speaking, you will be less prone to have a CVA.

You smoke, then statistically speaking, you destroy your health.

You see? Sometimes it is indeed very simple. :D


And I hate people who lie to themselves about those simple facts, because many lives are at stake.
 
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If you say so...

Once again, if you were right, then two decades ago, obesity rate should have been more or less the same.
(And believe me, two decades ago, the amount of stress we had to endure was the same)

It's not. Tell me why!! :harhar:

Because two decades ago a significant part of the population was not born yet. Duh. Epigenetics = changes in chromosome markers that get passed down through gametes across generations. These markers change with lifestyle changes of the previous generations and can last up to 3 generations. And I don't believe you because I've read studies to the contrary. Anyway... It's obvious you've made up your mind and are unwilling to accept new information. keep being a happy dogmatic.
 

subwayrider

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Not everything is always complicated.

Sometimes, you have very simple patterns of action->consequence.

Yes, but I think you can always go further and further in depth.

Maybe it's just me. I just found out 4-5-9 (The Contemplative) is both the type that's the most reclusive and the most prone to self-doubt. Lucky.

Looking at nonsequitur's posts, it could also be an INJ thing.
 

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I am not discounting that environment and personal choice play a factor - of course they all do. But I am saying that the situation is rarely clear cut especially when considering people on an individual level.

I didn't say anything otherwise (hence the use of the word "statistic"). But you know then that it could be interpreted as a lame excuse for people who are reading us.

Sometimes (bis repetitat placent), you can witness very simple patterns of cause->consequence even on an individual level. And pretending it's too complex to understand it is just PLAIN DEMAGOGY. You're justifying anything, any kind of behaviour. That's irresponsible. You're just telling people what they want to hear, not what they should hear.
 
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Yes, but I think you can always go further and further in depth.

Maybe it's just me. I just found out 4-5-9 (The Contemplative) is both the type that's the most reclusive and the most prone to self-doubt. Lucky.

Looking at nonsequitur's posts, it could also be an INJ thing.

It's an INJ vs ENTP thing. My supervisor is also an ENTP, jumps to conclusions based on a little data, rejects data that doesn't support his opinion, chooses models that support what he wants to say and should've published 2 retractions of his previous work because we know them to be artifacts. If he had taken the time before to use other methods to validate his stuff, it wouldn't even have been published. Naturally, also stubborn even when data shows him to be wrong in what he is claiming - attacks the person who got the data instead. Of course, being an ENTP, is a brilliant salesman, and gets funding for even the most spurious research, on the up-and-up in academia. Terrible scientist though.
 

skylights

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I've had a very long and negative history with body image - I began strict dieting at age 13 when I was already technically underweight, and have since moved through stages of fairly overweight, normal weight, underweight again, and now resting at a relatively comfortable "curvy" - and I think it's absurd that there's such negative judgment attached to being fat. When other people are ugly for whatever reason, or have really poor style, we don't hold it against them as if they are polluting the atmosphere - we might whisper to one another, wow, that person is ugly, and move on, but there's little lasting attachment of value judgment. Being fat, on the other hand, earns you lasting associations with being clumsy, slobby, unmotivated, unclean, stupid, boorish, gluttonous, greedy, selfish, and undisciplined. Which, perhaps you are overindulging and undisciplined - but what does that have to do with anyone else? The amount of Twinkies you consume has so little effect on your neighbors that it is beyond negligible, and that's coming from a Ne dominant perspective. Yes, being close friends with a fat person gives you a higher chance of getting fat, too, but it's not the fat person's responsibility to ensure you don't get fat any more than it's their responsibility to ensure you get your vehicle registration renewed.

The thing is, I read a lot of opinions from people who are skinny or normal weight, who have never experienced what it is like to live as an overweight person, who say that fatness shouldn't be accepted, and they don't understand that fatness already isn't accepted. No one thinks it's okay, guys. In no place are fat people free to walk in and feel free of their fatness. There's virtually no situation in which it wouldn't be better to be skinnier. It's painful and shaming ALL THE TIME, and for some crazy reason, it seems that many people who have never been overweight have ZERO concept of this overwhelming burden of shame that is already on an overweight person, and despite generally doing little more to earn their body weight mediocrity besides winning the genetic lottery and eating reasonably, they feel some bizarre sense of entitlement to be the "moral right" and enforce the overwhelming goodness of their not-fatness on society.

Following that, there's this idea that if we publically shame fat people, they'll suddenly get skinny. The problem is, it's not lack of social pressure that has caused fatness and it's not application of more social pressure that will cause it to go away. Fatness is a problem of a huge number of factors - on a personal level, self-discipline, time management, initiative, psychological relationship with food, physical ability, and genetics - and on a systemic level, food cost, food availability, cultural attitudes towards weight, cultural attitudes towards food, and education - and more, I'm sure. None of that is swayed by the average person being disapproving of fatness. None of it.

Furthermore, there's nothing about fat acceptance that suggests that being fat is good for your health, and no one is going to suddenly stop promoting healthy eating or exercise because the world's decided to get on board with being nicer to fat people. Yes, there have been a handful of studies done showing that slightly-overweight people can be in as good or better health than normal-weight people. That's not really surprising, honestly, and it shouldn't change anything about anyone's views. Health should be completely separate of weight. Weight is an indicator - nothing more. It's not directly related to health and it shouldn't be assumed to be directly related to health. All that fat acceptance encourages is not discriminating against fat people because they're fat. It shouldn't even be an issue. It should be a basic human right.

And the invisible part of the equation that people who have never been overweight tend not to see is how public shaming actually discourages fat people from becoming healthier, because it requires that the fat person publicly own up to their "sin", publicly address it, and publicly work to fix it. Every slip, every snuck cookie is fair game for public disapproval. A lot of people already avoid public gyms because they feel like all eyes are on them. What if all eyes were critically on them, just waiting for them to mess up? That's how it already is to be overweight. It would help to ease the culture of shame so that fat people feel okay about going to the gym, about going outside and walking, about talking about food with their coworkers and friends, about eating in sight of other people, about discussing health like they're just people with a health issue instead of people defined by their weight.

It's a bit like person-centered language in psychology. Saying "this person who is overweight" instead of "this fatty".

Guess which is more empowering. Guess which one will encourage positive change.
 
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I didn't say anything otherwise (hence the use of the word "statistic"). But you know then that it could be interpreted as a lame excuse for people who are reading us.

Sometimes (bis repetitat placent), you can witness very simple patterns of cause->consequence even on an individual level. And pretending it's too complex to understand it is just PLAIN DEMAGOGY. You're justifying anything, any kind of behaviour. That's irresponsible. You're just telling people what they want to hear, not what they should hear.

People create lame excuses regardless of the situation. It is important to me to be scientifically robust and judge the situation based on ALL of the data available. The data says that our understanding is as yet incomplete and we need to know more and there are more factors in play. That is my responsibility as a scientist. I don't care about what people want to hear. I only want to look at the data. That is being objective as a scientist. What people choose to do with information is their own business. It is not up to me to decide what people should hear either. That's being incredibly arrogant and assuming that I know better than others.
 

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Because two decades ago a significant part of the population was not born yet. Duh. Epigenetics = changes in chromosome markers that get passed down through gametes across generations. These markers change with lifestyle changes of the previous generations and can last up to 3 generations. And I don't believe you because I've read studies to the contrary. Anyway... It's obvious you've made up your mind and are unwilling to accept new information. keep being a happy dogmatic.

Indeed, I am a happy dogmatic. :D

For instance, I've learned that epigenetics is simply related with phenotype expression, and that it had nothing to do with chromosomes per se (hence the etymology: epigenetics= what is beyond genetics).

Sometimes, it's very simple.

The more you walk, the less likely you are to be obese.

The less you eat junk food and drink sugary sodas, the less likely you are to be obese.

You see? Sometimes, it's not that difficult to notice medical trends. ;)
 

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It's an INJ vs ENTP thing. My supervisor is also an ENTP, jumps to conclusions based on a little data, rejects data that doesn't support his opinion, chooses models that support what he wants to say and should've published 2 retractions of his previous work because we know them to be artifacts. If he had taken the time before to use other methods to validate his stuff, it wouldn't even have been published. Naturally, also stubborn even when data shows him to be wrong in what he is claiming - attacks the person who got the data instead. Of course, being an ENTP, is a brilliant salesman, and gets funding for even the most spurious research, on the up-and-up in academia. Terrible scientist though.

You see: for you it's something personal. You're not neutral.

Just read yourself more carefully again. Be calm and more rational, please.

I'm not your supervisor. If you have an issue with him, just settle it with him.
 
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Indeed, I am a happy dogmatic. :D

For instance, I've learned that epigenetics is simply related with phenotype expression, and that it had nothing to do with chromosomes per se (hence the etymology: epigenetics= what is beyond genetics).

Sometimes, it's very simple.

The more you walk, the less likely you are to be obese.

The less you eat junk food and drink sugary sodas, the less likely you are to be obese.

You see? Sometimes, it's not that difficult to notice medical trends. ;)

Changes in chromosome markers (i.e. methylation, acetylation etc.) are forms of epigenetic changes that take place across time. Smoking causes chromosomal modifications which then cause changes in expression levels that can be detected even 3 generations later. Same with starvation and/or over-eating. These are all contributory factors that can make things harder.

What I am advocating for is a support system to make things easier, and accepting that blame and yelling just makes people more stubborn. No one thinks "being obese is okay". No one thinks "I want to be less likely to be obese so I will go walk and drink less soda". No one believes themselves to be part of a statistic. However, they will go walk regularly with friends if they know that the odds are already stacked against them but everyone is committed to helping them lose weight. They will try harder to make a lifestyle change if it is a team effort and they are aiming to beat the odds. Kids score better on tests if they don't think that they're particularly smart, are rewarded for progress and told how to improve compared to if they're yelled at for a failing grade or told that they're smart and it's okay to fail. In other words, your attitude is counter-productive for what you are trying to achieve.
 

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I've never heard of this. Are there links available to speakers, articles, or something? The media pressure to be crazy-skinny - photoshopped skinny is the only thing I'm aware of existing. What examples of "fat acceptance" exist in the media?

Edit: I'm all for non-judgment and giving people their personal privacy, and supporting positive body image, along with promoting health. Anorexia and morbid obesity should be treated with compassion and concern. Shaming either makes it worse.
 
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You see: for you it's something personal. You're not neutral.

Just read yourself more carefully again. Be calm and more rational, please.

I'm not your supervisor. If you have an issue with him, just settle it with him.

My grudge is not against "the system" or science in general. It is with over-simplifying, short-sighted correlation=causation attitudes with no control of variables which contribute to bad science. And claims that general observations in studies are things that "science has conclusively shown".
 
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