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  1. #81
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Absolutely. You're spot on. You listed all the recommendations we do every month to our mayors and politicians.

    You would be a great urban health advisor!
    I grew up poor, am not far removed from being poor now, and my closest friends are poor, so I have a feel for what the obstacles are. And it's the poor who, in the US, at least, have the biggest problem and are the most expensive to society, since we have a ridiculous healthcare system. We'd rather shame people here than cut our own costs and improve people's lives.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #82
    Senior Member Chiharu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by briochick View Post
    None of the other vices have such a thorough "ugly, stupid, lazy" label attached to them; emphasis on the "ugly" as though it's a moral offense to expose strangers to something aesthetically unappealing. When you're big you feel the looks, you hear the comments, you read them online, you see them on television, and you either hide in your house crippled by shame, or you grow angry in an attempt to protect yourself. Smoking and drinking can be sexy, fat is never sexy, drugs can be fun and sexy, fat is never sexy, being a sex addict workaholic can be admirable and sexy, fat is never sexy. Do you see?

    ...

    It is not the obligation of women to be as physically attractive as possible to as many people as possible. I tried to look up statistics on the rates of obesity in men, there are hardly any. The rates of obesity in women, however, are everywhere, even coming up in my searches for obesity in men. This is, quite frankly, because society at large doesn't really care if men are obese.

    ...

    Unlike other "addictions" a person addicted to food can't just quit. They have to consume their addiction every day (or nearly) for the rest of their life.

    ...
    You can be skinny and unhealthy, or fat and unhealthy. No one minds if you're skinny and unhealthy. Some people won't stop smoking, some people won't stop drinking, some people won't quit that stupid partner, some people won't quit sleeping around; we don't judge them (much). The same courtesy should be extended to fat folk. But it isn't.

    I think you're underestimating the extent to which alcoholics and drug addicts are blamed. I'll admit that pop culture can sometimes condone these addictions, but it's rarely the case in real life. These addictions are treated as moral failings far more than obesity is, and they affect your chances of getting a job far more than obesity does. And I would argue that our culture and biology makes us prone to these addictions, and that environmental factors play an equal or greater role.

    Moreover, few obese people are addicted to fruit and veggies. They are addicted to sugary, processed foods. It's very possible to never eat those again, or eat them only rarely.

    And I object to your comment about no one caring about men being obese. It may be more of an issue for women, as any aesthetic issue is, and it's disgusting that we are judged on our appearance so much. But fat man are mocked, abused, and shamed too. They are perceived as less competent too. They are under media pressure to look like an unrealistic ideal too.

    I don't think the only alternative to fat acceptance is fat shaming. Just as forced, brutal rehab is rarely a good idea, there needs to be a gentler approach to weight loss. I don't support the diet industry AT ALL, and I agree with you that simple changes are the best. But the health at any size movement also seems sketch to me. I still find a lot of skinny-shaming on their sites, and I just don't think we're moving in an "acceptable" direction. I don't want the next generation to look like this one. The more slim you are as a child, the easier it is for you to lose weight as an adult. Child obesity is rising. I'm afraid.
    Be soft. Do not let the world make you hard. Do not let pain make you hate. Do not let the bitterness steal your sweetness." ― Kurt Vonnegut

    ENFP. 7w6 – 4w3 – 1w9 sx/so. Aries. Dilettante. Overly anxious optimist.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Chiharu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    It's a bit like person-centered language in psychology. Saying "this person who is overweight" instead of "this fatty".

    Guess which is more empowering. Guess which one will encourage positive change.
    This might be more of a personal thing. But I've gotten called "curvy" (True curviness has nothing to do with weight. I have naturally larger breasts and naturally wide hips. If I lost my curves with weight loss, I wouldn't be curvy), been told that if I lost a proper amount of weight I'd look unhealthy, and had all of the fat acceptance excuses made for me. Did the bullying I was subjected to help? No. But fat acceptance helped even less.

    For me to get up off of my ass, eat actual vegetables, and lose weight, I needed to stop hearing those excuses. I needed to call myself fat, acknowledge my laziness and overindulgence, and recognize that I had FAILED myself.
    Last edited by Chiharu; 06-19-2013 at 03:13 PM. Reason: I didn't like my tone.
    Be soft. Do not let the world make you hard. Do not let pain make you hate. Do not let the bitterness steal your sweetness." ― Kurt Vonnegut

    ENFP. 7w6 – 4w3 – 1w9 sx/so. Aries. Dilettante. Overly anxious optimist.

  4. #84
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    what if we targeted anorexics? I mean tell them its ok to be fat, since that's what they believe they are when they're a healthy weight. I think it's genius personally
    Interesting.

    It is absurd that the advertising industry thinks the models in that Dove photo are plus-sized. They're not fat! Just because they have some body fat does not make them fat!
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  5. #85
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    It's false, but only because you added "in general".

    If it was true "in general", then the average BMI should have remained more or less the same in developped countries during the last decades.

    It has not. In fact, during the last three decades, obesity prevalence has doubled, tripled and sometimes quadrupled..

    It means that most cases of clinical obesity aren't probably due to heritable factors (even if some are, unfortunately; if you have Maori or Pacific Islander ancestry, then you know what it means), but to our current environment.

    And our environment has changed. Both physically, economically and socially.

    We eat a lot more than what we used to be. We do less exercise than what we used to do. We are exposed to more chemicals and endocrine disruptors than ever, and the quality of the food we eat has been dramatically altered (too much cheap sugars), but that's just a few guesses. There are probably a lot of explained and unexplained factors at stake.

    But what I know FOR SURE, is that if you eat 4000 kcal a day (with a fondness for soft drinks), if you're average sized and if you sit all day long in front of a desk... then you will likely become obese.
    The heritability of bmi remains consistently high even in the face of environmental changes, http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/2/275.full.pdf. Heritability represents the variation within populations attributable to genetic factors, not the variation between populations. Take height for instance, we know that average height can change over time at the population level due to better nutrition but at an individual level height is still mostly determined by your genes throughout those changes. So let's say a developing nation decided they wanted to increase national height through public health policy/better nutrition, chances are they might achieve their goal of increasing average height but that doesn't mean that those who remained relatively short have "failed" they are doing the best with the genes that they have.

    I have no doubt that the public policy you suggest would greatly benefit public health at the population level, what I doubt is how great the impact of such policy would be at the individual level, where modest weight loss is not enough to be considered socially acceptable. Not to mention that as opposed to obesity which is a medical condition defined by bmi, "fatness" is a social condition and it is relative, so even if BMIs decrease on average there will still be "fat" people and "thin" people, it is the natural variation within populations that should be accepted not the shifts between populations.

    Allergies are the analogy I used earlier in the thread, they are also highly heritable yet their incidence has increased dramatically in the last few decades, does that mean we shouldn't "accept" people with allergies?
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  6. #86
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Interesting.

    It is absurd that the advertising industry thinks the models in that Dove photo are plus-sized. They're not fat! Just because they have some body fat does not make them fat!
    I agree the fact i'm no longer single digits in pant size depresses me because society tells me i have to be 0 even though the thinnest possible size is a 4 and now I'm a 10. Anyways I don't like it but i've started riding my bike 6+ miles a day and trying to eat healthier. shhh don't tell anyone about the cake.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  7. #87
    Senior Member Chiharu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I've never heard of this. Are there links available to speakers, articles, or something? The media pressure to be crazy-skinny - photoshopped skinny is the only thing I'm aware of existing. What examples of "fat acceptance" exist in the media?

    Edit: I'm all for non-judgment and giving people their personal privacy, and supporting positive body image, along with promoting health. Anorexia and morbid obesity should be treated with compassion and concern. Shaming either makes it worse.

    http://pinterest.com/emjoyce/fat-acceptance/
    http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9...c0p3o1_500.jpg
    http://cofc-01.wpengine.netdna-cdn.c...real-women.jpg
    http://i44.tinypic.com/ic8etc.png

    These are just a few examples. I'm trying to find the stuff that prompted me to start this thread, but following an ENFP's web trail is damn near impossible. It's all mixed in with stuff about leopards and sleep cycles and cute leggings lol
    Be soft. Do not let the world make you hard. Do not let pain make you hate. Do not let the bitterness steal your sweetness." ― Kurt Vonnegut

    ENFP. 7w6 – 4w3 – 1w9 sx/so. Aries. Dilettante. Overly anxious optimist.

  8. #88
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    It is time to show our cards.

    I'm an urbanist currently specialized in health and environmental problems. I'm not a physician, but I work with them on a daily basis.
    In Africa, we were focused on sanitation and diseases related to bad water quality. But in Europe and the US, we mainly focus on pollution, avalaibility of health structures, cleaning and recycling various wastes, but also on the obesity epidemy.

    Obesity has become the major health issue in developped countries, and is indirectly responsible for millions of deaths. So we work on how to make our built, political, cultural and physical environment less likely to promote obesity. And every physician or major health institute I've worked with, recommended the same thing: 1/ Make people exercise and walk more, and 2/ Educate people more about nutrition, make healthy products avalaible for them.

    -----

    I'm not here to make fun of obese people. On the contrary, my current job (this year) is to help them to find a cure. But we can do nothing if obese people don't acknowledge it's a disease, if they do not have the will to cooperate. And it's not because obesity has now become commonplace that it makes this disease less deadly. It is a deadly disease, a disease mostly due to our current way of living.

    For most cases we've studied, obesity works like an addiction to eating (especially sugar). People simply eat too much on average, and very unhealthy products. And you have to treat most obese people like people addicted to alcohol, tobacco or an heavy drug. They will behave the same way, most of them will be in complete denial of their situation, blaming genetics or inherited factors, or the so-called "slow metabolism" (no medical study has ever proven such a "slow metabolism" clearly existed). In fact most medical studies show that obese people frequently minimise the real amount of food they eat, that they hide it, exactly like an alcoholic person would do.
    And they need to exercise more frequently. I do not mean playing sports or suffer like a marathonian, but just walking a few miles each day. It's not a big deal, really, but it can have a tremendous effect on your health, more than if you play sports (even very intensively) only during the week ends..
    And that's where the physical environment, the structure of the city is important. Because if you're forced to use your car everyday, whether because you need it to go to work or to buy your daily stuff, you won't walk a lot. So the worst possible environment (from our perspective), is the extensive disconnected suburb with single housing and cul de sac, where a lot of space is wasted (urban sprawl).

    Obesity is correlated by multiple factors, but is more prevalent:

    1/ If you have a low level of education.
    2/ If you use your car everyday instead of walking, biking or taking public transports.
    3/ If you do not have access to varied commerces and services in your immediate vicinity -low mixed land use- (you should boycott the malls and especially discount stores).

    And this rule applies in every major metropolis in the world, regardless of continent or culture. So this has led to the twin concepts of walkability and active design. Built environments are now rated on how walkable they are, how they induce a pleasant walking activity.
    Why aren't these public policies sold as a cure for actual diseases like Diabetes and Heart diseases? Which can effect people of all sizes? Surely building better environments, better education etc will benefit everyone no matter what their size? So why even mention obesity? Is it because obesity is more exciting than diabetes and heart disease? More visceral? Are we using the vanity of weight loss as the "carrot" to achieve better public health.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    As someone who works out quite a bit, it is easy to view most of the population as "out of shape". How many people can do 20 push-ups if asked randomly or run a mile without stopping? I've seem lots of skinny people who have no muscle tone and smoke and take no meds. I don't see these people any differently than the fat people mentioned in the OP. They are just an easier target because of their appearance.

    Either way, neither group is healthy or in shape and shouldn't be glorified. Less emphasis on body image and more on lifestyle changes is a better way to reach everyone.
    There is such a thing called "normal weight obesity" (skinny fat) where one can be underweight or of normal weight but have a disproportionate amount of fat compared to lean muscle.
    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I've noticed in sitcoms the out-of-shape guys with the thin, beautiful women and have wondered whatever happened to Rosanne. In movies and TV it seems like heavier people are typically in comedic roles which isn't the same thing as acceptance. It seems funny to me to have never heard of this in the slightest, but to have only been overwhelmed by its opposite. Is the premise of this thread real?

    Dove has its "real beauty" campaign, but I would say that the women they show are at their healthiest weight.
    The irony is that the parent company (Unilever) of Dove also owns Axe so I wouldn't put too much stock in the "Real Beauty" Campaign.

  10. #90
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    Why aren't these public policies sold as a cure for actual diseases like Diabetes and Heart diseases? Which can effect people of all sizes? Surely building better environments, better education etc will benefit everyone no matter what their size? So why even mention obesity? Is it because obesity is more exciting than diabetes and heart disease? More visceral? Are we using the vanity of weight loss as the "carrot" to achieve better public health.
    part of my mom's research targets this, her full project is neuro cognitive development based on enviromental factors in children from ages fetus-4
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

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