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The Fat Acceptance Movement

Quinlan

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The third link, while the woman is not overweight, is the sort of skinny shaming spread by many overweight people, more often women. "Real women have curves", "Men want meat, bones are for the dog".

Skinny shaming while just as bad is the natural result of fat shaming. The cultural meme that says that fat people are 100% in control of their weight and that their bodies are up for public discussion and disdain unfortunately implies that the same goes for skinny people. Really skinny people and fat people should be allies against body shaming, the Skinny Fat Alliance.
 

cafe

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Skinny shaming while just as bad is the natural result of fat shaming. The cultural meme that says that fat people are 100% in control of their weight and that their bodies are up for public discussion and disdain unfortunately implies that the same goes for skinny people. Really skinny people and fat people should be allies against body shaming, the Skinny Fat Alliance.
I'm not skinny anymore and I'm not fat yet, but I'd join. If it was effective I'd become a true believer in the goodness of the human race and believe we could successfully take on all other forms of discrimination and inequality.
 

briochick

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Skinny shaming while just as bad is the natural result of fat shaming. The cultural meme that says that fat people are 100% in control of their weight and that their bodies are up for public discussion and disdain unfortunately implies that the same goes for skinny people. Really skinny people and fat people should be allies against body shaming, the Skinny Fat Alliance.

Very well said.
 

Orangey

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I don't like fat acceptance sheerly for the fact that it seems to take away hope. I mean, if I were overweight or obese, I'd be pretty discouraged by stories about how "so and so has a healthy, normal diet, exercises every single day, but she's still 300 pounds and always will be, because that's just the way it is...it's just how her body was made to be." That's pretty demoralizing, no?
 

briochick

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I don't like fat acceptance sheerly for the fact that it seems to take away hope. I mean, if I were overweight or obese, I'd be pretty discouraged by stories about how "so and so has a healthy, normal diet, exercises every single day, but she's still 300 pounds and always will be, because that's just the way it is...it's just how her body was made to be." That's pretty demoralizing, no?


This isn't meant as a slight to Orangey in any way but can we establish on this thread what is fat and what isn't? Like, a peer accepted standard. Because, 180 is "obese" for most women in the US. 180. Not 300. Those "fatties" that everyone on the web/news is talking about, those disgusting people who can't get their act together, who have NO self control, those ugly cows who can't stop shoving food in their faces 24/7, in my mind they're talking about everyone over 180. 300 is an entirely different ball park. 300 isn't even morbidly obese. 300 is super obese.

Is that what people think when they say "fat"? Are they thinking of super obese? Or, are they thinking medically obese? Because I've always taken fat and all the vicious and cruel comments about fat to mean anyone who is at or above the medical standard of "obese;" a weight of over 30% based off a calculation using that and their sex and height. So, like this girlhttp://www.mybodygallery.com/photos-34714-body-shape.htm?StartAt=1#.UcJ9DPmTg74

Is that what we're talking about? Can we establish some kind of standard? Are we talking about anyone overweight and up? Because overweight is anything above a bmi of 25% based on the calculation (that is, no other measurements need to be taken or factors included to establish an increase in your insurance rates), so that's anything at or over 150 for the average woman in America. Is that "fat?" Like this girl: http://www.mybodygallery.com/photos-32260-body-shape.htm?StartAt=29#.UcJ_GvmTg74

Because, frankly, I think that "overweight" (medical definition) is okay and even "obese" (medical definition) can be okay for some people. Morbidly obese though, maybe for football players or weight lifters or some other sport that requires a lot of weight, and super obese...that's just unfortunate.

However; I think that sugar is basically like alcohol. It's okay occasionally in very small doses. Having it often, or even regularly, turns it into poison. And, just like alcohol, some people have low tolerances for it, some people have better tolerances for it, but very few people can drink like a fish without it doing serious damage. Ectomorphs, of which there aren't a lot, are the high tolerance people, mesomorphs can probably handle a little. Most of us are endomorphs, we're low tolerance people.

Also, as someone studying psych (MA, not BA) I'd like to point out that punishment/negative sensation only works to extinguish a behavior, not create behaviors. This can get really complicated because humans are complicated. Because people who are big receive punishment/negative sensation (shaming, being ostracized, dirty looks and comments from strangers), they are essentially receiving punishment for all their behaviors, even the good ones. Also, by punishment you can get someone to stop eating (maybe entirely) but only through positive and negative reinforcement can you create desired behaviors (eating lots of veggies and fruits, eating only whole foods, exercising regularly, getting out and walking around, self care). Our society is WOEFULLY lacking in any ability to offer healthy positive and/or negative reinforcement. Instead we end up creating and atmosphere where getting thin means you'll get to eat fun foods again, and eating poisonous sweeteners is seen as the reward for being thin; that's why a teen eating an 800 calorie cinnebon can look on in disgust at a 300 pound person eating the same thing (when neither of them should be, my gosh). Also, a lot of big people have said "f*ck it! I'm not waiting until I reach a weight goal to eat "fun" foods again!" A problem being the addictive food being used like a carrot on a stick. They (sweeteners) should be seen as it is, very tasty poison, and all people should be discouraged from eating it or foods including them with any kind of regularity and getting outside and walking and talking with friends and gardening and eating whole food should be praised.

We should emphasize the weight A LOT less and the positive pro-social behaviors A LOT more.
 

Blackmail!

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The third link looks pretty normal along with the statement. The first two don't seem to have a significant following, but are presenting the meme that "body size is not connected to health". It sounds like they are taking what could be a reasonable idea too far.

This is an insane movement. These people are crazy or desperate if they think that body size is not connected to health.

Obesity is the major health issue in developed countries. Obesity kills millions of people each year.
According to me, if we have to fight obesity and NEVER make it "acceptable", it's not because obese people are deemed "ugly", it's not image related, it's rather because obese people are killing themselves the same way an alcoholic or an heavy smoker would. You may say that if they want to commit suicide, it's their business, and who are we to judge them... But I don't agree. You wouldn't let your neighbours or relatives die this way, especially when it can be prevented, would you?

Obesity is not a question of social acceptance, it's rather a question of societal solidarity.
 

Blackmail!

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Is that what people think when they say "fat"? Are they thinking of super obese? Or, are they thinking medically obese? Because I've always taken fat and all the vicious and cruel comments about fat to mean anyone who is at or above the medical standard of "obese;" a weight of over 30% based off a calculation using that and their sex and height. So, like this girlhttp://www.mybodygallery.com/photos-34714-body-shape.htm?StartAt=1#.UcJ9DPmTg74

Is that what we're talking about? Can we establish some kind of standard? Are we talking about anyone overweight and up? Because overweight is anything above a bmi of 25% based on the calculation (that is, no other measurements need to be taken or factors included to establish an increase in your insurance rates), so that's anything at or over 150 for the average woman in America. Is that "fat?" Like this girl: http://www.mybodygallery.com/photos-32260-body-shape.htm?StartAt=29#.UcJ_GvmTg74

Because, frankly, I think that "overweight" (medical definition) is okay and even "obese" (medical definition) can be okay for some people. Morbidly obese though, maybe for football players or weight lifters or some other sport that requires a lot of weight, and super obese...that's just unfortunate.

BMI Index is not a percentage, you're confusing many notions.

Technically speaking, being "obese" means you have a BMI higher than 30.
With a BMI of 32, your mortality rate is doubled. So this condition is not to be taken lightly, medically speaking. Of course a bad self image can have disastrous mental consequences, but it's not the main issue, really. Obesity will affect your heart, your arteries, your brain and your endocrine system, with dire consequences.
 

Blackmail!

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Skinny shaming while just as bad is the natural result of fat shaming. The cultural meme that says that fat people are 100% in control of their weight and that their bodies are up for public discussion and disdain unfortunately implies that the same goes for skinny people. Really skinny people and fat people should be allies against body shaming, the Skinny Fat Alliance.

You're in denial Quinlan, and you know it.

It's exactly like if you were saying that an heroine addict is not "100%" in control of his addiction. Of course, s/he is not. But ultimately, nobody can take the decision to stop drugs but him/her. The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, and that in most cases, this problem could be cured. Without even a basic willpower impulse, if you constantly pretend you can nothing about it, that you can't fight, then indeed nothing will change.
 

Blackmail!

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I mean, if I were overweight or obese, I'd be pretty discouraged by stories about how "so and so has a healthy, normal diet, exercises every single day, but she's still 300 pounds and always will be, because that's just the way it is...it's just how her body was made to be."

In 98% of the cases, those stories are false, they're urban legends. According to most medical and psychological studies I've read, most obese people will carefully hide the real quantity of food they eat, even to their doctors. The vast majority of them will lie and will stay in denial. It's like an addiction to drugs.

If obese people go to an environment where their food intake is closely watched and controled, then in 98% of the case, they "miraculously" lose weight. Only 2% of the population have a sizable genuine genetic predisposition towards obesity.
 

Ivy

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Blackmail! I'm interested in your work. In some ways I feel really cheated by the system of sprawl in the area where I live- walking and biking are, of course, perfectly acceptable leisure activities here, but we don't have the infrastructure that makes walking or biking a practical way to get from place to place and thus built into daily life. I'd love to live in a place where walking/biking were built in as activities of daily life, rather than only as "bonus" activities that you have to have leisure time to perform. Unfortunately it's an economic reality that buying a living space in the downtown areas where walking and biking are practical, and also working there so you have the opportunity to walk/bike to and from work, are luxuries limited to a very few, here. Most people live outside the downtown areas and commute to various work locations by car, by necessity moreso than choice. I don't commute, because I work from home, but my job is very sedentary and I often lose the momentum it takes to build activity into my day since it's not a requirement in this environment. When I lived briefly in Manhattan, NYC, I walked to work daily and home again, and that was a couple of miles a day. But we couldn't afford to live there long-term, either. I played roller derby for a couple of years to get more exercise (skating for 2-4 hours, 4x/week) but had to drop that hobby when it started to feel like between it and work, I was losing touch with my family.

As for food, I'm willing to admit that I'm totally addicted to it (though quite ashamed of the fact). It seems like an especially cruel addiction, to be addicted to something that you have to consume daily for the rest of your life. There's no going cold turkey on food.
 

Blackmail!

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The heritability of bmi remains consistently high even in the face of environmental changes, http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/2/275.full.pdf. Heritability represents the variation within populations attributable to genetic factors, not the variation between populations. Take height for instance, we know that average height can change over time at the population level due to better nutrition but at an individual level height is still mostly determined by your genes throughout those changes. So let's say a developing nation decided they wanted to increase national height through public health policy/better nutrition, chances are they might achieve their goal of increasing average height but that doesn't mean that those who remained relatively short have "failed" they are doing the best with the genes that they have.

I have no doubt that the public policy you suggest would greatly benefit public health at the population level, what I doubt is how great the impact of such policy would be at the individual level, where modest weight loss is not enough to be considered socially acceptable. Not to mention that as opposed to obesity which is a medical condition defined by bmi, "fatness" is a social condition and it is relative, so even if BMIs decrease on average there will still be "fat" people and "thin" people, it is the natural variation within populations that should be accepted not the shifts between populations.

Allergies are the analogy I used earlier in the thread, they are also highly heritable yet their incidence has increased dramatically in the last few decades, does that mean we shouldn't "accept" people with allergies?

You're confusing and mixing many dissimilar notions.

What this article says concerns only the very tiny percentage of population who really have a genetic predisposition towards obesity. It compares for instance the statistics avalaible in 1990, and all it says is that if your parents were both obese a few decades ago, then yes, there is a higher chance that you can become obese yourself.

If you want to convince yourself that you are amongst those 2% of the population, and that you can do nothing against your current condition, it's your choice. Perhaps that indeed, you have a genuine genetic predisposition towards obesity, I don't know. It would require a serious study and many further medical tests: just speak about it to your doctor. But statistically speaking, it's not likely and in most cases, chances are that you would be in real denial, just like the vast majority of obese people.

But Quinlan, stay assured that I'm not here to shame you nor any obese people. I'm just telling you what I know about the subject (I work on it), I'm just trying to help.

-----

And you analogy with allergies is false, because most allergies can't be cured, and are not as deadly as obesity. And allergies aren't the result of a conscious addiction.
 

Quinlan

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You're in denial Quinlan, and you know it.

It's exactly like if you were saying that an heroine addict is not "100%" in control of his addiction. Of course, s/he is not. But ultimately, nobody can take the decision to stop drugs but him/her. The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, and that in most cases, this problem could be cured. Without even a basic willpower impulse, if you constantly pretend you can nothing about it, that you can't fight, then indeed nothing will change.

No need to be rude, Blackmail.

The weight loss industry is and has been booming for some time now, clearly people are aware they have a problem. Individuals and public health officials have been fighting obesity for decades, how's that working out for them?
 

Orangey

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In 98% of the cases, those stories are false, they're urban legends. According to most medical and psychological studies I've read, most obese people will carefully hide the real quantity of food they eat, even to their doctors. The vast majority of them will lie and will stay in denial. It's like an addiction to drugs.

If obese people go to an environment where their food intake is closely watched and controled, then in 98% of the case, they "miraculously" lose weight. Only 2% of the population have a sizable genuine genetic predisposition towards obesity.

Yeah, I know. But if you read some of the stuff that specific Health At Every Size (fat acceptance) advocates write, they really do say this kind of thing about themselves as proof that the "eat less, exercise more formula" doesn't work. In fact, that's a bit of mantra for the whole movement.

Putting the veracity of those claims aside (I know they're not true in the vast majority of cases), I don't even see how any of that helps an overweight or obese person feel empowered. It seems more like it would make you feel hopeless.

Then again, that's probably psychologically easier than admitting that it's within one's power to change (because that would mean that responsibility becomes a factor.)
 

Blackmail!

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No need to be rude, Blackmail.

I'm sorry, this wasn't my intention. You know I respect you, and that's why you're in my friend list on Typo-c.

The weight loss industry is and has been booming for some time now, clearly people are aware they have a problem. Individuals and public health officials have been fighting obesity for decades, how's that working out for them?

If you want to make me say that obesity might be a disease of our civilization, that it says a lot about the insanity of our current way of life, then yes, I would agree.
Our cities, our environment, our economy and our industries all lead towards this huge obesity epidemic. And changing the whole western society is an incredibly difficult and slow process. The political inertia is huge.
 

Quinlan

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You're confusing and mixing many dissimilar notions.

What this article says concerns only the very tiny percentage of population who really have a genetic predisposition towards obesity. It compares for instance the statistics avalaible in 1990, and all it says is that if your parents were both obese a few decades ago, then yes, there is a higher chance that you can become obese yourself.

If you want to convince yourself that you are amongst those 2% of the population, and that you can do nothing against your current condition, it's your choice. Perhaps that indeed, you have a genuine genetic predisposition towards obesity, I don't know. It would require a serious study and many further medical tests: just speak about it to your doctor. But statistically speaking, it's not likely and in most cases, chances are that you would be in real denial, just like the vast majority of obese people.

But Quinlan, stay assured that I'm not here to shame you nor any obese people. I'm just telling you what I know about the subject (I work on it), I'm just trying to help.

-----

And you analogy with allergies is false, because most allergies can't be cured, and are not as deadly as obesity. And allergies aren't the result of a conscious addiction.

Did you even read the article in my post?

Where does your 2% statistic come from? And how are they any more excused from the basic calories in>calories out idea?

Why are you personalising this debate? I am very slightly overweight according to my BMI, a few months ago I was in the normal weight category, I don't care even if you did try and shame me for such a tiny amount of weight, I have no dog in this race. I am only telling you what I have read from well regarded geneticists like Jeffery Friedman and epidemiologists like Katherine Flegal, blogs like "Obesity Panacea" these people are not quacks, my opinions aren't fringe ones.

Allergic reactions can be prevented by avoiding exposure to known allergens, it's just a matter of how much "prevention" you think is acceptable. I recently read an article about how asthma is linked to fast food consumption, so should we just assume that asthmatics are all binging on fast food and shame them into compliance?
 

Blackmail!

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Did you even read the article in my post?

Where does your 2% statistic come from? And how are they any more excused from the basic calories in>calories out idea?

Why are you personalising this debate? I am very slightly overweight according to my BMI, a few months ago I was in the normal weight category, I don't care even if you did try and shame me for such a tiny amount of weight, I have no dog in this race. I am only telling you what I have read from well regarded geneticists like Jeffery Friedman and epidemiologists like Katherine Flegal, blogs like "Obesity Panacea" these people are not quacks, my opinions aren't fringe ones.

1/ I feel relieved for you. I thought I had read before, a few years ago that you complained about your weight. Or rather, that weight issues seemed very important for you. Maybe I was wrong, and that's better this way.

2/ Once again, I have no other option but to trust what seems to be the consensus in most public health institutes. That's why I quoted the HSPH for instance. I've read dozens, and dozens, and dozens of article that explain that the current obesity epidemy has very little to do with genetics or inheritable factors, but rather with our current way of life, our current environment. When your job is to suggest policies to mayors and public institutions, you can't take any risk but stay cautious and consensual.

Once again, it's very simple logic. If people on average eat more and exercice less, then it's likely that many of them will grow fat. It's bit like a thermodynamics equation: if on average you have more energy intake coupled with less energy expenditure, then guess what happens... :mellow:
Trust your common sense!


Allergic reactions can be prevented by avoiding exposure to known allergens, it's just a matter of how much "prevention" you think is acceptable. I recently read an article about how asthma is linked to fast food consumption, so should we just assume that asthmatics are all binging on fast food and shame them into compliance?

Supposing that what your article suggests is true, your conclusion is a sophistry (confusion between the general and the particular).
But it would not change the solution: going to a fast food restaurant is almost always a bad idea, medically speaking. And it should be their responsability to avoid them.

Fighting the agribusiness companies and chains is very difficult. Lots of money are at stake.
 
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Poindexter Arachnid

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Proper healthcare, diet and exercise should be encouraged, obviously.
And the harassment, negative connotations and ridicule should not be encouraged.

The "movement" is mostly fixated on the latter.
Discrimination sucks, but the best revenge is to live well.

Which means getting even fatter.
 

Quinlan

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2/ Once again, I have no other option but to trust what seems to be the consensus in most public health institutes. That's why I quoted the HSPH for instance. I've read dozens, and dozens, and dozens of article that explain that the current obesity epidemy has very little to do with genetics or inheritable factors, but rather with our current way of life, our current environment. When your job is to suggest policies to mayors and public institutions, you can't take any risk but be cautious and consensual.

I suggest you look into the work of Jeffrey Friedman, he is a geneticist that discovered the hormone Leptin. He sees obesity mostly as a breakdown in hormonal regulation. He has witnessed so called gluttonous, slothful, ignorant, weak willed obese people rapidly become slim, healthy, normal people after hormonal treatment. How did the hormonal treatment make them a better person? How did it improve their character and make their will power stronger? The fact is it didn't, it just fixed a fault in the system. There was nothing wrong with their character, that is just our ad hoc rationalisation for a fault in a system we ddidn't and still don't really understand. You can find a number of his lectures, papers and articles on google, they may not help with your public policy but they are very interesting if you have an open mind.

Once again, it's very simple logic. If people on average eat more and exercice less, then it's likely that many of them will grow fat. It's bit like a thermodynamics equation: if on average you have more energy intake coupled with less energy expenditure, then guess what happens... :mellow:
Trust your common sense!

So why do you excuse the 2% of obese people you mentioned, what makes them different? Surely the laws of thermodynamics apply to all of us?


Supposing that what your article suggests is true, your conclusion is a sophistry (confusion between the general and the particular).
But it would not change the solution: going to a fast food restaurant is almost always a bad idea, medically speaking. And it should be their responsability to avoid them.

Fighting the agribusiness companies and chains is very difficult. Lots of money are at stake.

Here is my problem with current policy on obesity, we all know the key to good health is an active lifestyle and good eating/sleeping etc. habits as well as a healthy environment. A healthy lifestyle/environment will benefit everyone, fat, thin, normal weight, we should be promoting it to all people. Now an unhealthy lifestyle can have many side effects some of which for instance may be obesity, diabetes and heart disease. Now by focusing on obesity instead of healthy lifestyles for everyone we are implying it's ok to have an unhealthy lifestyle as long as you're normal weight. It's like saying because smokers tend to be thinner we shouldn't worry about the fat smokers, fatness and thinness is incidental to the actual behaviours not the cause. It should be a blanket statement of "unhealthy lifestyle causes heart disease" in the same way we say "smoking causes lung cancer". So instead of the message being "Poor habits leads to obesity which leads to heart disease" it should be " Poor habits leads to heart disease" this means the message reaches people of all sizes.
 
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