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  1. #41
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    People create lame excuses regardless of the situation. It is important to me to be scientifically robust and judge the situation based on ALL of the data available. The data says that our understanding is as yet incomplete and we need to know more and there are more factors in play. That is my responsibility as a scientist. I don't care about what people want to hear. I only want to look at the data. That is being objective as a scientist. What people choose to do with information is their own business. It is not up to me to decide what people should hear either. That's being incredibly arrogant and assuming that I know better than others.
    1/ You're not scientifically robust. You're very emotional. You obviously have professional issues not related to Science, but I'm not responsible for them.

    2/ Deluding people and telling them only what they want to hear, is an irresponsible attitude.


    What you're doing is exactly like telling people who smoke that "we do not have all the datas, so we can't judge whether smoking is bad or good for your health". It's absurd!
    It is a classic sophistry.

    You probably know as well as me that science is an infinite process, that behind a question will always lie another question. If we follow your path of reasoning, then we should never be allowed to say anything, because we will always lack so-called" complete datas. If we follow your path of reasoning, then science is useless, then scientists are failures. And if you really want to play that childish game, then I should add that nobody can be objective, and that includes you.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  2. #42
    Member subwayrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I've never heard of this. Are there links available to speakers, articles, or something? The media pressure to be crazy-skinny - photoshopped skinny is the only thing I'm aware of existing. What examples of "fat acceptance" exist in the media?
    In "Dodgeball," the ripped gym rats were the bad guys, and the more potato-shaped but still active people were the good guys.

    Also, I've seen a lot of male characters in movies who are out of shape in relationships with thin, beautiful women. There might even be sort of a double-standard within this Fat Acceptance Movement as manifested in the media.

  3. #43
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    And claims that general observations in studies are things that "science has conclusively shown".
    Statistics and empirical datas are the only objective evidences we can discuss here.

    If you deny everything and always claims that "it's more complex, it's more complex" (of course it is!!!!), then the discussion is closed.

    You are behaving like a religious person.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #44
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by subwayrider View Post
    In "Dodgeball," the ripped gym rats were the bad guys, and the more potato-shaped but still active people were the good guys.
    haha, i liked that movie

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Statistics and empirical datas are the only objective evidences we can discuss here.

    If you deny everything and always claims that "it's more complex, it's more complex" (of course it is!!!!), then the discussion is closed.

    You are behaving like a religious person.
    I see it as sort of a continuum wherein going too far into either side is dangerous. I could explain why both are dangerous, if needed, but I think it's pretty clear.


    Extreme Certainty <---------------------- | -----------------------> Unwavering Doubt

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    1/ You're not scientifically robust. You're very emotional. You obviously have professional issues not related to Science, but I'm not responsible for them.
    1st claim: that's all it is, a claim. You have no evidence to back up what you're saying. I am emotional obviously because I care deeply about how science is being used and regarded and I disagree with people who claim "science says"/"science does" when it does no such thing. You are not responsible for how I feel about this matter; however, I will not sit and let such general claims pass.

    2/ Deluding people and telling them only what they want to hear, is an irresponsible attitude.
    Only telling people what YOU want them to hear despite evidence to the contrary is an irresponsible attitude.

    What you're doing is exactly like telling people who smoke that "we do not have all the datas, so we can't judge whether smoking is bad or good for your health". It's absurd!
    It is a classic sophistry.
    You are misrepresenting what I'm saying. A closer analogy to what I'm saying is "there are many reasons why people smoke apart from personal responsibility and we don't know all of them as yet. blaming individuals does not help the situation. Understanding the various factors and coming up with a plan to address a wide swathe of them is better than pinning it on an oversimplified 'people are lazy/bad' explanation". No number of adjectives that you use makes what I say any less true.

    You probably know as well as me that science is an infinite process, that behind a question will always lie another question. If we follow your path of reasoning, then we should never be allowed to say anything, because we will always lack so-called" complete datas. If we follow your path of reasoning, then science is useless, then scientists are failures. And if you really want to play that childish game, then I should add that nobody can be objective, and that includes you.
    Again misrepresenting what I'm saying. My path of reasoning is that we may not understand everything about something but when our understanding of the situation changes with new data, our attitudes should also shift. No one is objective, obviously. But claiming to know everything about a situation, over-simplifying based on the oldest models of epidemiology and being stubborn despite being confronted with new ideas is just bad science.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Statistics and empirical datas are the only objective evidences we can discuss here.

    If you deny everything and always claims that "it's more complex, it's more complex" (of course it is!!!!), then the discussion is closed.

    You are behaving like a religious person.
    Funny how "behaving like a religious person" is treated like an insult here.

    Again misrepresenting my position. Already addressed it and not gonna bother further. You obviously have misconceptions about what I believe and think and are somehow attacking a straw man. No matter, I've already made my position clear as to what I object to, and I know that my judgment with regards to scientific study, especially in my own area of expertise, is spot on.

  8. #48
    Member subwayrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    But claiming to know everything about a situation, over-simplifying based on the oldest models of epidemiology and being stubborn despite being confronted with new ideas is just bad science.
    They say science progresses one grave at a time.

    You would think people in the scientific community would be all open-minded and progressive, but when I studied some of the history of science...nope. It was sort of disappointing for me.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    It's a bit like person-centered language in psychology. Saying "this person who is overweight" instead of "this fatty".
    I do feel for overweight people. I mean...I tend to empathize with suffering of all kinds, but this flavor seems particularly potent, in its way.

    Hug, anyone?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by subwayrider View Post
    I do feel for overweight people. I mean...I tend to empathize with suffering of all kinds, but this flavor seems particularly potent, in its way.

    Hug, anyone?


    I speak as a member of the minority, though admittedly I'm only on the fringe now. I can't help relating whenever stuff like this comes up. The memories are - like you said - too potent. I feel like I was pressured by society into believing I was fat when I was underweight, and it's taken me over 15 years to heal from the behavioral ramifications of that belief. I'm not blaming society for my struggle, but I'm floored when I see people suggest that society being negative is a good way to solve a problem. It should flip an alarm in people's minds when "acceptance" is being fought against. Acceptance and advocacy are not the same.

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