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  1. #31
    Member subwayrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Not everything is always complicated.

    Sometimes, you have very simple patterns of action->consequence.
    Yes, but I think you can always go further and further in depth.

    Maybe it's just me. I just found out 4-5-9 (The Contemplative) is both the type that's the most reclusive and the most prone to self-doubt. Lucky.

    Looking at nonsequitur's posts, it could also be an INJ thing.

  2. #32
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    I am not discounting that environment and personal choice play a factor - of course they all do. But I am saying that the situation is rarely clear cut especially when considering people on an individual level.
    I didn't say anything otherwise (hence the use of the word "statistic"). But you know then that it could be interpreted as a lame excuse for people who are reading us.

    Sometimes (bis repetitat placent), you can witness very simple patterns of cause->consequence even on an individual level. And pretending it's too complex to understand it is just PLAIN DEMAGOGY. You're justifying anything, any kind of behaviour. That's irresponsible. You're just telling people what they want to hear, not what they should hear.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by subwayrider View Post
    Yes, but I think you can always go further and further in depth.

    Maybe it's just me. I just found out 4-5-9 (The Contemplative) is both the type that's the most reclusive and the most prone to self-doubt. Lucky.

    Looking at nonsequitur's posts, it could also be an INJ thing.
    It's an INJ vs ENTP thing. My supervisor is also an ENTP, jumps to conclusions based on a little data, rejects data that doesn't support his opinion, chooses models that support what he wants to say and should've published 2 retractions of his previous work because we know them to be artifacts. If he had taken the time before to use other methods to validate his stuff, it wouldn't even have been published. Naturally, also stubborn even when data shows him to be wrong in what he is claiming - attacks the person who got the data instead. Of course, being an ENTP, is a brilliant salesman, and gets funding for even the most spurious research, on the up-and-up in academia. Terrible scientist though.

  4. #34
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    I've had a very long and negative history with body image - I began strict dieting at age 13 when I was already technically underweight, and have since moved through stages of fairly overweight, normal weight, underweight again, and now resting at a relatively comfortable "curvy" - and I think it's absurd that there's such negative judgment attached to being fat. When other people are ugly for whatever reason, or have really poor style, we don't hold it against them as if they are polluting the atmosphere - we might whisper to one another, wow, that person is ugly, and move on, but there's little lasting attachment of value judgment. Being fat, on the other hand, earns you lasting associations with being clumsy, slobby, unmotivated, unclean, stupid, boorish, gluttonous, greedy, selfish, and undisciplined. Which, perhaps you are overindulging and undisciplined - but what does that have to do with anyone else? The amount of Twinkies you consume has so little effect on your neighbors that it is beyond negligible, and that's coming from a Ne dominant perspective. Yes, being close friends with a fat person gives you a higher chance of getting fat, too, but it's not the fat person's responsibility to ensure you don't get fat any more than it's their responsibility to ensure you get your vehicle registration renewed.

    The thing is, I read a lot of opinions from people who are skinny or normal weight, who have never experienced what it is like to live as an overweight person, who say that fatness shouldn't be accepted, and they don't understand that fatness already isn't accepted. No one thinks it's okay, guys. In no place are fat people free to walk in and feel free of their fatness. There's virtually no situation in which it wouldn't be better to be skinnier. It's painful and shaming ALL THE TIME, and for some crazy reason, it seems that many people who have never been overweight have ZERO concept of this overwhelming burden of shame that is already on an overweight person, and despite generally doing little more to earn their body weight mediocrity besides winning the genetic lottery and eating reasonably, they feel some bizarre sense of entitlement to be the "moral right" and enforce the overwhelming goodness of their not-fatness on society.

    Following that, there's this idea that if we publically shame fat people, they'll suddenly get skinny. The problem is, it's not lack of social pressure that has caused fatness and it's not application of more social pressure that will cause it to go away. Fatness is a problem of a huge number of factors - on a personal level, self-discipline, time management, initiative, psychological relationship with food, physical ability, and genetics - and on a systemic level, food cost, food availability, cultural attitudes towards weight, cultural attitudes towards food, and education - and more, I'm sure. None of that is swayed by the average person being disapproving of fatness. None of it.

    Furthermore, there's nothing about fat acceptance that suggests that being fat is good for your health, and no one is going to suddenly stop promoting healthy eating or exercise because the world's decided to get on board with being nicer to fat people. Yes, there have been a handful of studies done showing that slightly-overweight people can be in as good or better health than normal-weight people. That's not really surprising, honestly, and it shouldn't change anything about anyone's views. Health should be completely separate of weight. Weight is an indicator - nothing more. It's not directly related to health and it shouldn't be assumed to be directly related to health. All that fat acceptance encourages is not discriminating against fat people because they're fat. It shouldn't even be an issue. It should be a basic human right.

    And the invisible part of the equation that people who have never been overweight tend not to see is how public shaming actually discourages fat people from becoming healthier, because it requires that the fat person publicly own up to their "sin", publicly address it, and publicly work to fix it. Every slip, every snuck cookie is fair game for public disapproval. A lot of people already avoid public gyms because they feel like all eyes are on them. What if all eyes were critically on them, just waiting for them to mess up? That's how it already is to be overweight. It would help to ease the culture of shame so that fat people feel okay about going to the gym, about going outside and walking, about talking about food with their coworkers and friends, about eating in sight of other people, about discussing health like they're just people with a health issue instead of people defined by their weight.

    It's a bit like person-centered language in psychology. Saying "this person who is overweight" instead of "this fatty".

    Guess which is more empowering. Guess which one will encourage positive change.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I didn't say anything otherwise (hence the use of the word "statistic"). But you know then that it could be interpreted as a lame excuse for people who are reading us.

    Sometimes (bis repetitat placent), you can witness very simple patterns of cause->consequence even on an individual level. And pretending it's too complex to understand it is just PLAIN DEMAGOGY. You're justifying anything, any kind of behaviour. That's irresponsible. You're just telling people what they want to hear, not what they should hear.
    People create lame excuses regardless of the situation. It is important to me to be scientifically robust and judge the situation based on ALL of the data available. The data says that our understanding is as yet incomplete and we need to know more and there are more factors in play. That is my responsibility as a scientist. I don't care about what people want to hear. I only want to look at the data. That is being objective as a scientist. What people choose to do with information is their own business. It is not up to me to decide what people should hear either. That's being incredibly arrogant and assuming that I know better than others.

  6. #36
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    Because two decades ago a significant part of the population was not born yet. Duh. Epigenetics = changes in chromosome markers that get passed down through gametes across generations. These markers change with lifestyle changes of the previous generations and can last up to 3 generations. And I don't believe you because I've read studies to the contrary. Anyway... It's obvious you've made up your mind and are unwilling to accept new information. keep being a happy dogmatic.
    Indeed, I am a happy dogmatic.

    For instance, I've learned that epigenetics is simply related with phenotype expression, and that it had nothing to do with chromosomes per se (hence the etymology: epigenetics= what is beyond genetics).

    Sometimes, it's very simple.

    The more you walk, the less likely you are to be obese.

    The less you eat junk food and drink sugary sodas, the less likely you are to be obese.

    You see? Sometimes, it's not that difficult to notice medical trends.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  7. #37
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    It's an INJ vs ENTP thing. My supervisor is also an ENTP, jumps to conclusions based on a little data, rejects data that doesn't support his opinion, chooses models that support what he wants to say and should've published 2 retractions of his previous work because we know them to be artifacts. If he had taken the time before to use other methods to validate his stuff, it wouldn't even have been published. Naturally, also stubborn even when data shows him to be wrong in what he is claiming - attacks the person who got the data instead. Of course, being an ENTP, is a brilliant salesman, and gets funding for even the most spurious research, on the up-and-up in academia. Terrible scientist though.
    You see: for you it's something personal. You're not neutral.

    Just read yourself more carefully again. Be calm and more rational, please.

    I'm not your supervisor. If you have an issue with him, just settle it with him.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Indeed, I am a happy dogmatic.

    For instance, I've learned that epigenetics is simply related with phenotype expression, and that it had nothing to do with chromosomes per se (hence the etymology: epigenetics= what is beyond genetics).

    Sometimes, it's very simple.

    The more you walk, the less likely you are to be obese.

    The less you eat junk food and drink sugary sodas, the less likely you are to be obese.

    You see? Sometimes, it's not that difficult to notice medical trends.
    Changes in chromosome markers (i.e. methylation, acetylation etc.) are forms of epigenetic changes that take place across time. Smoking causes chromosomal modifications which then cause changes in expression levels that can be detected even 3 generations later. Same with starvation and/or over-eating. These are all contributory factors that can make things harder.

    What I am advocating for is a support system to make things easier, and accepting that blame and yelling just makes people more stubborn. No one thinks "being obese is okay". No one thinks "I want to be less likely to be obese so I will go walk and drink less soda". No one believes themselves to be part of a statistic. However, they will go walk regularly with friends if they know that the odds are already stacked against them but everyone is committed to helping them lose weight. They will try harder to make a lifestyle change if it is a team effort and they are aiming to beat the odds. Kids score better on tests if they don't think that they're particularly smart, are rewarded for progress and told how to improve compared to if they're yelled at for a failing grade or told that they're smart and it's okay to fail. In other words, your attitude is counter-productive for what you are trying to achieve.

  9. #39
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I've never heard of this. Are there links available to speakers, articles, or something? The media pressure to be crazy-skinny - photoshopped skinny is the only thing I'm aware of existing. What examples of "fat acceptance" exist in the media?

    Edit: I'm all for non-judgment and giving people their personal privacy, and supporting positive body image, along with promoting health. Anorexia and morbid obesity should be treated with compassion and concern. Shaming either makes it worse.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    You see: for you it's something personal. You're not neutral.

    Just read yourself more carefully again. Be calm and more rational, please.

    I'm not your supervisor. If you have an issue with him, just settle it with him.
    My grudge is not against "the system" or science in general. It is with over-simplifying, short-sighted correlation=causation attitudes with no control of variables which contribute to bad science. And claims that general observations in studies are things that "science has conclusively shown".

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