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  1. #11
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Why are 85% of the threads in this subforum about weight issues?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  2. #12
    half-nut member briochick's Avatar
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    I thought all day about maybe not responding to this post.

    I think obesity and the growth of obesity is very very complex. I think the reasons for fat shaming, which are rampant, are very very complex.

    I'm overweight. I used to be obese. The reality is that I will probably never be below that top limit of "healthy" weight, no matter how healthy I am. When I was on an NCAA rowing team in college and it was literally my life, I never broke that "healthy" weight. My cousin is a community sports team addict, a health nut, and a fitness instructor. She's in embarrassingly good shape (I think she could probably squat a truck), but her weight would qualify her as "obese" for her height.

    My cousin and I are probably mesomorphs, though I bet I have more endomorph in me than she does.

    The BMI equation is broken because it makes a cookie cutter standard.

    The countries that have the fastest growth of obesity are third world countries. Did the third world countries suddenly become stupid, lazy, gluttonous, and ugly? No. There's an economic and food availability factor to obesity that few want to address.

    Blaming someone is easy. Helping someone is hard. Accepting that some people don't want help and that's okay is very hard.

    None of the other vices have such a thorough "ugly, stupid, lazy" label attached to them; emphasis on the "ugly" as though it's a moral offense to expose strangers to something aesthetically unappealing. When you're big you feel the looks, you hear the comments, you read them online, you see them on television, and you either hide in your house crippled by shame, or you grow angry in an attempt to protect yourself. Smoking and drinking can be sexy, fat is never sexy, drugs can be fun and sexy, fat is never sexy, being a sex addict workaholic can be admirable and sexy, fat is never sexy. Do you see?

    The only vice where everyone smaller feels just that much superior to you.

    It is not the obligation of women to be as physically attractive as possible to as many people as possible. I tried to look up statistics on the rates of obesity in men, there are hardly any. The rates of obesity in women, however, are everywhere, even coming up in my searches for obesity in men. This is, quite frankly, because society at large doesn't really care if men are obese.

    The fat pride movement is very much to protect and empower people who are overweight, and I support that. As someone studying psychology and who is particularly fond of behaviorism and positive psychology I don't believe you can ever create a desired behavior through negative stimulation (eg. pain, shame, ostracizing, restriction).

    Unlike other "addictions" a person addicted to food can't just quit. They have to consume their addiction every day (or nearly) for the rest of their life.

    There are environmental factors to weight. America is not a country made for walking, and many countries are following suit. We weren't meant to be stuck indoors at a desk all day (and into the night), or at a single stand in a factory doing the same repetitive motion over and over all day (and into the night), we weren't meant to eat processed food filled with pesticides and hormones and GM-godknowswhats and to spend all out time running around, living off a few hours sleep and caffeine. Many places are dangerous.

    It's also about information, some people aren't curious, some people haven't been taught better, some people were taught about health by adds on tv and by shows on tv, all which are very very misleading as to what healthy is.

    The diet industry makes everything worse, because it promises quick fixes and leaves people feeling like failures, and like they can't try on their own, and like they have to be part of a special group and meet a weight requirement rather than just going outside and walking at the park with friends a few times a week, and doing some jumping jacks during commercials, and eating an apple instead of a candybar and a fruity tea instead of soda and more veggies instead of boxed frozen food and they'd feel sooooo much better, but they were tricked.

    Fat shaming makes everything worse, the people who tell bigger people to go away, to go hide, to go die. How many times would you have to hear it, to feel it, before it effected you? The brain doesn't know the difference between emotional anguish and physical pain.

    Doctors don't listen to people who are fat, are more likely to consider them combative, less likely to spend time with them. They get hired less, paid less when they are hired.

    I don't know if "fat pride" is good, but the "healthy at every size" movement is. I also know why fat pride exists, as a back lash to being paid less, liked less, insulted more, looked down on, taxed, rejected. Why was there a black pride moment? Because there was black hate.

    We don't know many people are the way they are. We don't know what medications they take, what their sleep schedule is, what work of life is like, where they live. We don't know much about friends, let alone strangers. There are an awful lot of antidepressants and antipsychotics prescribed, as well as other medicines, many which cause weight gain. We just don't know their story. We don't know if the 400 pound woman on the subway has lost 100 pounds. We don't know if her last living relative died last year and she's all alone and is feeding herself to death because she has no connection to the world anymore. We just don't know. And what we don't know we have no right to judge.

    I think that the solution is for people get out there and be physical, eat well, love yourself, stop judging. I bet if we did that the national waistline would trim up a bit. A bit, but not back to what it was, because there are environmental and economic factors involved too, not just the moral constancy of the people, but people would be happier, and healthier.

    Also, I think a major component to the depression correlation in weight is in being shamed and ostracized and considered ugly. Maybe not all of it, or not at the very high weights, but definitely in the 5-70 lb range. I know that was entirely the component for any sense of inferiority I felt (or feel). On the days when I don't think anyone is looking and judging I'm happy and confident. I think we have a right to be happy and confident no matter what size. Rather than saying "lose weight and be happy" it should be "be happy, maybe lose some weight."

    You can be skinny and unhealthy, or fat and unhealthy. No one minds if you're skinny and unhealthy. Some people won't stop smoking, some people won't stop drinking, some people won't quit that stupid partner, some people won't quit sleeping around; we don't judge them (much). The same courtesy should be extended to fat folk. But it isn't.

    Fat shaming also has an aspect of the blame the victim mentality that rape has among women. that is, other women will blame a rape victim because if it's her fault then it can't happen to them, because they're not like her. Fat shame is similar, if it's the fatty's fault, than I can't become fat, because I'm not like them. Now I am better and safe.

    Like I said, It's a very very complicated issue.
    -Brio

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  3. #13
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    I agree 100% with you. Self acceptance and self love should include treating your body as a temple and living a healthy lifestyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chiharu View Post
    And most the really outspoken people about body positivity achieve that by putting down thin people,
    Thank you! I made a thread about this.

  4. #14
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    THe issue is that we have a shitty eating habits and a culture that fetishes the automobile even in situations where bipedalism is perfectly appropriate. We chow down on junk that's boasting of how "low in fat" it is and avoid fruits and vegetables like the plague. We can't walk to the mailbox that's two blocks down.

    Fat people aren't entirely to blame for being fat, because our culture is conducive to being fat. That being said, it does suggest that somethng is wrong with our culture.

    Also, I think it's important to distinguish between "obese" and a "little chubby." The latter might be technically overweight, but I think that it couldn't hurt if we considered that more acceptable.

    Full disclousre: I probably have skinny privilege. If I'm being a dick here, call me out.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  5. #15
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    THe issue is that we have a shitty eating habits and a culture that fetishes the automobile even in situations where bipedalism is perfectly appropriate. We chow down on junk that's boasting of how "low in fat" it is and avoid fruits and vegetables like the plague. We can't walk to the mailbox that's two blocks down.

    Fat people aren't entirely to blame for being fat, because our culture is conducive to being fat. That being said, it does suggest that somethng is wrong with our culture.

    Also, I think it's important to distinguish between "obese" and a "little chubby." The latter might be technically overweight, but I think that it couldn't hurt if we considered that more acceptable.

    Full disclousre: I probably have skinny privilege. If I'm being a dick here, call me out.
    Who is we though? Overweight/obesity isn't just a problem of the US, or the West, or just developed countries. Developing countries have the "double burden" of obesity and malnutrition, where it seems as though rather than affluence causing obesity all it requires is some minimal amount of food availability and it will be present.

    More than 75percent of overweight children live in developing countries with the prevalence in Africa almost doubling in the last 20 years. Obese children are more likely to be obese as adults, with an increased risk of diabetes and other diseases, the WHO study said. http://www.unmultimedia.org/tv/unife...-malnutrition/
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  6. #16
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Why are 85% of the threads in this subforum about weight issues?
    Probably because obesity is the worst pandemic of the developed world, especially in terms of death toll and health issues.

    In 1986 -that's not so long ago-, only one US citizen out of twelve had a BMI over 30. Now, it's more than one person out of four, and this number continues to rise, year after year.
    In New York City only, people spend more than 9.9 billion $US annually because of health issues related to being overweight.

    Being obese should never ever be accepted, unless we accept that people are destroying themselves with heroine or cocaine. It's a similar issue.
    It doesn't mean bullying fat people, but making them clearly understand that they are sick, and that they should seek help rather than shamefully accept their fate, and find stupid or lame excuses everytime.

    Lack of education is also statistically related to being overweight. We should never ever accept ignorance. On the other hand, we should try by all means to educate people, and to make them behave responsibly, to make them understand what they're doing with their own body. Health is priceless.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  7. #17
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    THe issue is that we have a shitty eating habits and a culture that fetishes the automobile even in situations where bipedalism is perfectly appropriate. We chow down on junk that's boasting of how "low in fat" it is and avoid fruits and vegetables like the plague. We can't walk to the mailbox that's two blocks down.

    Fat people aren't entirely to blame for being fat, because our culture is conducive to being fat. That being said, it does suggest that somethng is wrong with our culture.

    Also, I think it's important to distinguish between "obese" and a "little chubby." The latter might be technically overweight, but I think that it couldn't hurt if we considered that more acceptable.

    Full disclousre: I probably have skinny privilege. If I'm being a dick here, call me out.
    Absolutely.

    Using a car everyday is DIRECTLY related to being obese, according to every possible medical statistic. Walking just one mile every day reduces the odds of being obese by three. One mile is not such a big distance.

    And you're also right: just like tobacco companies not so long ago, many agribusiness companies are interested in making people sick because it makes them rich.

    Just look at how difficult it is for somebody like Michael Bloomberg to ban soda vending machines in schools. He's even been accused of being a communist totalitarian because he simply cares about the health of his fellow new yorkers.

    And look at this trend, how these agrobusiness companies fight with relentless hypocrisy:

    http://www.ryot.org/bloombergs-war-o...ntinues/218029
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  8. #18
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    Hmm. I have a slightly more nuanced take on this.

    It's not just about what you eat and how much exercise you've done. It's also about your medical history and a large part of what your life is. For someone like me - healthy weight by all definitions but Asian mother nagging me to lose weight to become "more attractive", cooking and living alone, it's probably easier for me to lose weight by making small changes like storing my packed meals in smaller portion sizes. Just by this small trick, I lost 4kg over 6 months without even realising it. I don't snack either, and don't particularly care about what I eat but my body seems to naturally crave greens and fresh fruit. On the other hand, I don't exercise.

    But for my Dutch friend brought up on a diet of potatoes and who has the urge to snack all the time, it's been pretty difficult for her to lose weight. She's incredibly active, exercises a lot, bikes everywhere. We've been very interested in things like nutrition and the effect of lifestyle on health, and we're both biochemists so we've been doing quite a bit of reading and discussing this over lunch. It turns out that things like stress ups the levels of cortisol in your body, and if it's long-term stress, it actually dysregulates other hormonal processes including estrogen production, causes adrenal fatigue and thyroid problems. In turn, all of these have the overall effect of prioritising fat storage around the middle and in muscles over metabolism because your body is getting the signal that it doesn't know where its next meal is coming from and it needs to run from a bear!

    Another factor is that because of over-farming and the supermarket-distributor-system of obtaining groceries, by the time the food reaches our table, it has lost a lot of its nutritional value. Many of us are actually malnourished and have vitamin and mineral deficiencies despite being overweight, and this also contributes to metabolic problems and cause the body to gain weight. Additionally, a lot of supplements being marketed are actually a rip-off because they don't contain additional factors that help to absorb the vitamins and minerals that you're supposedly buying. It's important to consult a nutritionist who knows their supplements if you intend to go that route towards getting your metabolism back on track.

    It's easy to say that "people are lazy, eat too much and drive so they're obese", but I'd say that such a claim is being intellectually lazy. Beyond a certain point, your metabolism and hormones are so dysregulated that it's hard to get it to switch back to "normal" function without extreme effort. Undoubtedly, lifestyle contributes to obesity. But beyond that, if we're being pro-active and trying to solve the problem instead of blaming people, it's important to realise that past a certain point, it's not as easy as "put down that hamburger". When your BMI is over 30, it requires a big shock to the system - a wholesale lifestyle change and commitment - to get your metabolism back to normal, which is difficult to make for people, especially if your job contributes to a sedentary lifestyle and requires a lot of travel time. Further, in a world where we're required to be on call 24/7 and stress is constant, it's important to be able to mentally get away from it all or health falls down the priority list and your body goes out of whack.

    On the good side of things, exercise actually helps the hormones get back to normal levels on top of burning fat. I'm not advocating quitting jobs and neglecting family to become a gym nut, I really do believe that the reason for increasing obesity is multi-factorial and can't be solved by something like banning soda machines. It requires a full commitment to health as a first priority, and being willing to change deeply ingrained habits.

    As someone who is relatively healthy but could be healthier, I know how hard it is even for me to start - and that's in the best case scenario. When I see obese people, I don't blame them, and I understand that it's a lot more complicated than "just lose weight". But I also think that for health reasons (not to be underweight and look good in a bikini) and for happiness reasons, it's a sign that there are habits in their lives that should be changed and more education about nutrition and metabolism is required.

    ---------------------------------------------

    Note that if the science sounds too general in this post, it's because I'm trying to make it understandable for the layman.

  9. #19
    Member subwayrider's Avatar
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    IMO, we should delay judgment until the scientific evidence delineates a clear conclusion.

    Too many of the posts here are founded largely on sheer assumption; some people really do have an innate disposition to obesity, and might have to undergo far more unhealthy extremes in attaining a weight society deems acceptable than in remaining "overweight."

    For instance, I remember reading about Lord Byron, a poet from 19th-century England. This man lived in the 1800s -- this was before refined sugars, enriched flour, vegetable oils, and so forth, were rampantly consumed; this is before automobiles. He was a very good-looking man, but, because of a constitutional disposition to obesity, he had to use purgatives and intermittently starve himself to keep up his looks.

    Someone in the same boat today would not only be even more susceptible to obesity, -- for all the fattening foods we have now -- but they would also be healthier maintaining a weight that, while over what society would deem normal or healthy, would be their default, healthy weight. This point has been brought up before -- there are simply many different kinds of body types, and people don't all have to look just one way.

    Though I have to agree obesity seems inarguably undesirable, for the health issues it entails.

  10. #20
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    It's easy to say that "people are lazy, eat too much and drive so they're obese", but I'd say that such a claim is being intellectually lazy.
    It may sound easy, but that's one of the facet of scientific truth apparently nobody wants to hear, even you.

    There are dozens, and dozens, and dozens peer-reviewed articles that would prove this.

    Or are you implying that people had less metabolic problems, just two decades ago? That we were less "stressed" then?
    No, we're basically and physiologically the same. It's our way of living that has changed, it's the way we consume alimentary products that has changed.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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