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  1. #171
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I don't understand how anyone could arrive at that conclusion. There may be mitigating factors. But economic conditions don't make robbery not a willful act.
    I have no idea where you are going with that. Obesity is a BMI over 30, that is clearly a state/condition/attribute not a behaviour. Eating junk food and being sedentary are behaviours.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  2. #172
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    So far, there seems to be a link with high fructose intake. But there are probably several other factors involved.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2584858/




    But it doesn't mean previous views about calorie intake are false: they remain true.
    Leptin will only regulate your appetite, so it's part of the issue, but the issue remains, at the core, how much you eat and what you eat (+ regular exercices). Leptin resistant rats will not become obese because they are resistant to leptin per se, but because they can't stop eating. If you give the proper amount of food per day to a leptin resistant rat (and nothing more), he won't become obese, he will just become a very hungry rat.

    What studies on leptin have shown, for instance, is that fasting, severe or radical diets aren't necessarily the solution, because they will likely increase your appetite on the long term, even if you lose weight. So these studies might give us a few clues on how we should cure obese people, at which rate, and with which food... but the basic principle remains the same.
    Of course it doesn't make them false, it just meant they aren't particularly helpful. It's like if the pilots in an aeroplane died and a novice had to step in and land the plane and the air traffic controller tells them how to fly "just rise more and fall less, it's simple physics" it's not really helpful it's just stating the obvious.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  3. #173
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    Of course it doesn't make them false, it just meant they aren't particularly helpful. It's like if the pilots in an aeroplane died and a novice had to step in and land the plane and the air traffic controller tells them how to fly "just rise more and fall less, it's simple physics" it's not really helpful it's just stating the obvious.
    Be careful with your wild metaphors!

    Comparison is not reason!
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #174
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    I find overt fat bullying very offensive and for some reason I've been in relationships when I was younger with men who thought it was hilarious to mock fat people (though one probably had anger directed toward his obese mother, granted, it was less immature in his case, and less overt, and mainly directed toward his overbearing invasive mother) ...but I find it appalling. I find it appalling that anyone would bully anyone for any physical reason, I am of the "do they deserve it?" camp of people, so I'm not exactly the most passive and agreeable soul, but I have always hated bullies, and bullying people for being fat is no different than bullying them for being short, tall, thin, wearing glasses, being physically disabled, or being mentally ill.

    So why would I have accepted it in former boy friends? Probably because as a woman I've heard my entire life how I should never be fat, that's probably why. If you're a girl, apparently being fat is worse than being stupid or dead.

    And that's horrible.

    This why I EMBRACE THE FAT ACCEPTANCE MOVEMENT.

    Call me radical, but I'm tired of people over 110 pounds thinking they're "fat." I have a very athletic build, I'm very firm, and naturally busty, and while some people love my body so much they've paid money to watch me dance or any other number of things, I have been called "fat" myself and it's a load of fucking bullshit.

    Should I go kill myself because I'm not an ectomorph?

    Apparently some people find me very attractive, and I'm quite healthy, and therefore I take serious issue with what I grew up being told "fat" was...and "fat" was apparently weighing 20 pounds more than Kate Moss.

    On the other hand, I think obesity is very unhealthy and I don't think actual unhealthiness should be encouraged either.

    I would honestly rather it be called "the acceptance of people within healthy body weights of all different shapes and sizes" than the fat acceptance movement, which does kind of imply that it's okay for people to destroy their health and be medically obese, and that I strongly disagree with.

    I also don't think "feeder" pornography is any saner than anorexic porn.

  5. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    devil's advocate:

    Let's say you're not morally superior, fine, but would you be morally bankrupt/shrugging off responsibility if let's say you did have a condition? Or you're genetically predisposed to alcoholism (no idea if that's an actual genetic feature, let's just pretend), and you decide to drink and keep lots of booze around? Or you're allergic to something, but you decide to keep eating it anyway?

    Personally, I think fat people (and skinny people) should be able to just enjoy a damn cheeseburger in peace. "Health" isn't the end all and be all. If that's what they really want, let them have it. Christ, it tastes good. Not every fat person is eating out of shame or binging.

    But I do tend to think that everyone comes into and picks up throughout life different crosses to bear.

    Someone who isn't an alcoholic that can drink a beer and not decide to drink a whole case afterward hasn't done anything notable. An alcoholic that chooses to stock up their liquor cabinet when they know full well they can't control themselves - I'm not sure about the morality, but they are certainly demonstrating a lack of responsibility and self control. The non-alcoholic is fortunate in that they don't NEED to demonstrate special responsiblity. The alcholic does - if they don't want to fall victim to their alcoholism.

    This brings up questions whether your sense of morality/responsibility is one-size-fits-all or individualized...and whether it's anyone else's business or not, anyway.

    note note note:

    alcoholism effects families and relationships in different ways than obesity and i'm not conflating the two.
    Yeah this all makes sense...there's a woman on another web site I go to, apparently has some kind of metabolic disorder and she's even overweight on a strict vegan diet; meanwhile there's people eating McDonald's who look like a "normal" or even slender weight...especially when in teens/early twenties.

    I sometimes have to stop and realize there's a certain amount of unexplained (and unacknowledged) arrogance in my mesomorphic physical traits: I basically can't stand not moving, I was a very active child, as an adult I walk and do yoga and swim and bike, but I don't consider myself a strict athlete and still people look at me naked and say "wow do you work out" and it's funny to me because I'm "fat" compared to very slender ectomorphic super-model types, but to some people, I'm just the picture of firm good health, and I just take it all for granted.

    Because you know, all ectomorphs aren't supermodels, some have bad posture and are "skinny fat" and out of shape, and apparently it's not even right for me to take too much credit for my impulse to move, because it literally runs in my blood.

    My mom said one of my great-aunts lived into her hundreds, and another lived into her 90s, on my grandma's side...and they both walked and gardened until very old. My grandfather died at 80, but I swear at 65 he looked 50 and was tan, hearty and strong.

    A lot of this stuff is in your genes. I honestly think I'm actually built to withstand more eating and drinking and movement than some people.

    A friend of mine just died in his 30s from lung cancer.

    And here I am, in perfect health, just like la-ti-da...and I think about all of these people, you know, who can't do what I'm doing because...they simply weren't born as healthy.

    You're right about the eating and alcohol thing too. No, they aren't the same, but it's still an apt comparison. Some people naturally have less interest in food and eating than others.

  6. #176
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    That's patently untrue in every respect. Every single commercial for an unhealthy processed food is glorifying it just as much as every movie that shows drug abuse in a romantic light. This isn't a pissing contest for who has the most crippling addiction.
    why do you read things that aren't even there? you look in the mirror and you see your fat. I never said junk food wasn't glorified. I didn't even mention junk food. You missed the whole point of what i said. I'm done. *washes hands*
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  7. #177
    Lungs & Lips Locked Unkindloving's Avatar
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    I think a difficult part to this is the effects in different areas. America is primarily an obese and underregulated place, whereas other places are more liable to focus on certain food groups or the banning of harmful food sources. We don't. We are a profit country hellbent on sucking life force out of our society and in place of it stuffing them with an abundance of easily-accessible and economically available BS. & we fall for it very frequently.

    Anyway.. I don't find that it's a bad thing to promote fat acceptance. I do feel we shouldn't judge people as harshly at all, but at the same time we should have health and fitness promoted far more. Drive people into believing in themselves and have others believe in them enough so that they choose to seek health out of a positive message, rather than after years of being belittled or 'less of a person'.
    Personally, the whole 'shame me to motivate me' trick never worked on me. I'd easily be made bitter and say 'fuckit I'm staying fat because if I need to be thin to be appreciated, then I don't want it' --- at a point it does become a self-want to be fit, but it shouldn't take the opposite road to get there. That's when you see a lot of fit people who are still trying to fit ideals and are miserable despite their journey, or just not focusing on health at all and more obsessed with the sliding number.

    I don't think we should have to tiptoe around each other, but that the focus has always been skewed to 'Oh you/they would look so much better if...' when it should more so be 'You/they might feel better and be at less risk for weight-related issues'.
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