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  1. #151
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    i think whats essential for wellbeing of people is not to consume more energy(especially bad fats and carbs) than what you are using. i dont think its healthy to lose weight at any cost, but exercising and eating healthily(as in not too much or too little of the right foods) will make the fat go away and be essential for peoples wellbeing.

    i think bullying fat people(or any people) is retarded, but when some fat person is crying about some issues that are caused by being fat, it makes me want to tell them to stfu and deal with the consequences of the decisions that you are constantly making or do something about it and then kindly offer my help to do something about it, like explaining proper diet etc and giving some tips on losing weight. i mean its like someone hitting himself in the face and crying about his nose bleeding..
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  2. #152
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post

    i think bullying fat people(or any people) is retarded, but when some fat person is crying about some issues that are caused by being fat, it makes me want to tell them to stfu and deal with the consequences of the decisions that you are constantly making or do something about it and then kindly offer my help to do something about it, like explaining proper diet etc and giving some tips on losing weight. i mean its like someone hitting himself in the face and crying about his nose bleeding..

  3. #153
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    I'm mostly in the same camp as @Blackmail! in that obesity is primarily a public health issue, and that most of the increase in obesity over the last 20-30 years is attributable to diet and lifestyle changes for the typical "first world" person. Obviously there are exceptions, and the degree to which these sorts of changes affect people vary even among those who aren't clinically considered to have a "genetic predisposition" to being overweight. I'm not an expert on the topic, but I've read a bit about it, and diet (mostly) and exercise seem to be the large part of it, at least when you're looking at statistics describing populations, as opposed to individuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    As for food, I'm willing to admit that I'm totally addicted to it (though quite ashamed of the fact). It seems like an especially cruel addiction, to be addicted to something that you have to consume daily for the rest of your life. There's no going cold turkey on food.
    This is true, but you can go "cold turkey" on sugary stuff and processed food. I did it 4-5 months ago, and it was deceptively difficult, but it also worked. I lost a bit over 15 lbs in a month, and have stayed at that weight since mid-February. I'm not really more active than I was before (I do go to the gym a few times a week... but I did that before, too). One of the main problems, however, is...

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    There is also an access problem: healthy foods are often expensive and often grocery stores are not close to where people with transportation challenges live. We basically live like cattle in a feed log: fed corn and kept sedentary.
    Like cafe says, it's expensive. Both in time and money. I probably spend, on average, an hour a day in the kitchen either cooking or cleaning up -- that's probably 55 minutes more per day than I used to. My food expenditures have probably doubled, if not closer to tripled -- and I eat out a lot less. Granted, I could trim the financial cost a little bit if I wanted to, but it would still be much more expensive. And I'm lucky in that I'm a single person with a good job and relatively few financial obligations. I can afford it (at least right now) -- but I can certainly see why that is a *major* difficulty -- certainly one that should be addressed as a matter of public policy, instead of saying "eat more subsidized corn products and take these drugs to keep your health metrics looking acceptable" sort of thing we have going on now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    I suggest you look into the work of Jeffrey Friedman, he is a geneticist that discovered the hormone Leptin. He sees obesity mostly as a breakdown in hormonal regulation. He has witnessed so called gluttonous, slothful, ignorant, weak willed obese people rapidly become slim, healthy, normal people after hormonal treatment.
    If I remember correctly, this is actually related to diet. High-sugar diets tend to make us resistant to leptin, throwing off hormonal balance in just the way you describe. From what I've read a lot of issues related to diet are hormonal, but that's affected by what we eat, as well as the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    How did the hormonal treatment make them a better person? How did it improve their character and make their will power stronger? The fact is it didn't, it just fixed a fault in the system.
    Exactly. Nobody deserves to be bullied.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #154
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post

    If I remember correctly, this is actually related to diet. High-sugar diets tend to make us resistant to leptin, throwing off hormonal balance in just the way you describe. From what I've read a lot of issues related to diet are hormonal, but that's affected by what we eat, as well as the other way around.
    .
    I wasn't aware that the cause of Leptin resistance had been pinned down but something like sugar would not surprise me. I suspect it is something considered fairly innocous that starts the intial spiral into resistance. I think good quality sleep supposedly helps with improving Leptin sensitivity too. The scientific community doesn't seem particularly interested in Leptin though, I think we need a leptin index of food just like there is a glycemic index of food. I think exercise might improve health not so much because you are burning x amount of calories but because of its beneficial hormonal effects. I think there needs to be more research into leptin resistance. Part of the problem with the dominant view on obesity is that it is based on our understanding before we even knew things like Leptin even existed. So there was an obsession with the few things we did know about (calories) rather than less obvious things like hormones.
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  5. #155
    Senior Member Chiharu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'm troubled also by some of the comments in this thread that imply all fat people are liars. It effectively sets up a system in which a fat person is unable to defend themselves from accusations; the fall-back position is that they're just lying about what they do and eat. I suspect there is more to this than the (very real) factors of food addiction, suburban sprawl, and unchecked agribusiness. What about the complete dependence on plastics for damn near everything? That wasn't the case just a few decades ago, and many of the plastics we use (even ones we pack our food in) are proven endocrine disruptors. I just don't think it's useful or productive to completely blame individual fat people for their condition when there may be (and IMO probably are) factors we haven't even identified yet that affect this on a wider scale.
    I agree that too many people assume that obese people lie about what they eat. As Briochick said, becoming obese (let's say 20-40 lbs overweight) is not that difficult for normally healthy people if they stop monitoring their food intake and activity level. But, the truth is, many morbidly obese people will admit that they lie about food intake. Most emotional eating is done in secret. So while these assumptions are definitely not helpful, they are also not unfounded or motivated by hatred for the obese. And I think that hiding food is a major indicator of food addiction or emotional eating. It's a good question to ask.
    Be soft. Do not let the world make you hard. Do not let pain make you hate. Do not let the bitterness steal your sweetness." ― Kurt Vonnegut

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  6. #156
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I wonder about the total acceptance of causality regarding illness. My mother has cancer. She never smoked one cigarette, drank extremely rarely and never even to the point of being drunk, never took a drug, was never promiscuous, kept her weight well within healthy range, got light exercise regularly, stayed active in social groups, had good relationships that she kept over time, I mean ... everything you think should lead to perfect, splendid health ... but she has cancer and her arteries are so brittle she can't have a stent.

    Some of you folks just sound very young to me. You don't realize you could get slammed in the face with a catastrophic illness, or find out late in life that your arteries are for shit and you're not in the great health you always thought you were either. It's not always about how you live. We're just at the mercy of some things in life -- we're not in control of everything. Have some compassion and stop making it your business to judge who's doing it right and who's not.

  7. #157
    Senior Member Chiharu's Avatar
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    I just want to reiterate that fat shaming is not the alternative to fat acceptance.

    I think that everyone should be treated with respect, and literally no one on this thread has said "let's shame fat people, they suck!".

    But being morbidly obese is never healthy. No one is born to be fat. Weight loss is not magical or overly complicated. And these tenets of the fat acceptance movement do more harm than good.
    Be soft. Do not let the world make you hard. Do not let pain make you hate. Do not let the bitterness steal your sweetness." ― Kurt Vonnegut

    ENFP. 7w6 – 4w3 – 1w9 sx/so. Aries. Dilettante. Overly anxious optimist.

  8. #158
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I eat what I want, when I want and as much of it as I want. I'm mostly sedentary. I'm not overweight, despite having had four kids and eating a shitty American poor people diet for most of my life. I've become a little dumpy in middle age and I have been steadily gaining weight since my mid-thirties but I don't think I'll ever be morbidly obese unless I develop a weight-effecting disease. So I get a pass from society because of how I look without making any special effort or even being all that healthy: I have high cholesterol.

    It'd be like thinking I was morally superior to gay people because I'm attracted to the opposite sex, which I did not choose and am not denying myself in any way by not sleeping with women. Makes me crazy.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  9. #159
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I eat what I want, when I want and as much of it as I want. I'm mostly sedentary. I'm not overweight, despite having had four kids and eating a shitty American poor people diet for most of my life. I've become a little dumpy in middle age and I have been steadily gaining weight since my mid-thirties but I don't think I'll ever be morbidly obese unless I develop a weight-effecting disease. So I get a pass from society because of how I look without making any special effort or even being all that healthy: I have high cholesterol.

    It'd be like thinking I was morally superior to gay people because I'm attracted to the opposite sex, which I did not choose and am not denying myself in any way by not sleeping with women. Makes me crazy.
    devil's advocate:

    Let's say you're not morally superior, fine, but would you be morally bankrupt/shrugging off responsibility if let's say you did have a condition? Or you're genetically predisposed to alcoholism (no idea if that's an actual genetic feature, let's just pretend), and you decide to drink and keep lots of booze around? Or you're allergic to something, but you decide to keep eating it anyway?

    Personally, I think fat people (and skinny people) should be able to just enjoy a damn cheeseburger in peace. "Health" isn't the end all and be all. If that's what they really want, let them have it. Christ, it tastes good. Not every fat person is eating out of shame or binging.

    But I do tend to think that everyone comes into and picks up throughout life different crosses to bear.

    Someone who isn't an alcoholic that can drink a beer and not decide to drink a whole case afterward hasn't done anything notable. An alcoholic that chooses to stock up their liquor cabinet when they know full well they can't control themselves - I'm not sure about the morality, but they are certainly demonstrating a lack of responsibility and self control. The non-alcoholic is fortunate in that they don't NEED to demonstrate special responsiblity. The alcholic does - if they don't want to fall victim to their alcoholism.

    This brings up questions whether your sense of morality/responsibility is one-size-fits-all or individualized...and whether it's anyone else's business or not, anyway.

    note note note:

    alcoholism effects families and relationships in different ways than obesity and i'm not conflating the two.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  10. #160
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    it's easier to accept you're fat than it is to accept you have a problem with alcohol or drugs. especially when everything glorifies alcohol and drugs
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

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