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  1. #131
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    I got in trouble once for accidently calling someone fat. But it was because I thought she was a fat naked man for a second. and I told her. So she's like I look like a man? and I'm fat? she doesn't look like a many but she is big. And I wasn't thinking that it could be taken as an insult i just found it funny and wanted to share. No intention, of insulting. Infact people with extra are great to snuggle with jmo. ANd the reason why she took offense i believe has to do with the fat shaming
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  2. #132
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    This is an insane movement. These people are crazy or desperate if they think that body size is not connected to health.

    Obesity is the major health issue in developed countries. Obesity kills millions of people each year.
    According to me, if we have to fight obesity and NEVER make it "acceptable", it's not because obese people are deemed "ugly", it's not image related, it's rather because obese people are killing themselves the same way an alcoholic or an heavy smoker would. You may say that if they want to commit suicide, it's their business, and who are we to judge them... But I don't agree. You wouldn't let your neighbours or relatives die this way, especially when it can be prevented, would you?

    Obesity is not a question of social acceptance, it's rather a question of societal solidarity.
    The "reasonable idea" i was referring to is not that obesity is unrelated to health, but that there are a range of body types that can be healthy and everyone doesn't have to look like a Victoria Secret model. The reasonable idea is that that there isn't one beauty ideal and that some people are naturally heavier (not obese).

    I'm all for fighting obesity. When there are entire demographics of people dealing with the same issue, it isn't about individual choice. The better approach is to look at the large-scale root problems and solve those at the societal level. When dealing with the societal level of a problem, pressuring the individual and making them feel responsible for the problem is likely not going to fix anything.

    Obesity is a more emotionally charged health issue than cancer, smoking, chronic pain, etc. because it is so closely connected to self-image and sexuality. If it doesn't make sense to shame a cancer patient, why would it make sense to shame an obese person? Both have to make choices to get treatment and neither should be connected to self-image. Yet because obesity triggers opinions about a person's sexual attractiveness, it is by nature more personal. I'm for a cancer-patient acceptance movement, but not a cancer-acceptance movement. In this way I am for complete acceptance of the obese person, but not for their health problem. Actually sexualizing a health issue is a problem, but it is being done because of the tendency for society to sexually reject the obese individual.

    I can see why this issue is difficult to discuss because there are some deeply personal assumptions that go into the concept of acceptance or rejection of the obese person.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  3. #133
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'm troubled also by some of the comments in this thread that imply all fat people are liars. It effectively sets up a system in which a fat person is unable to defend themselves from accusations; the fall-back position is that they're just lying about what they do and eat. I suspect there is more to this than the (very real) factors of food addiction, suburban sprawl, and unchecked agribusiness. What about the complete dependence on plastics for damn near everything? That wasn't the case just a few decades ago, and many of the plastics we use (even ones we pack our food in) are proven endocrine disruptors. I just don't think it's useful or productive to completely blame individual fat people for their condition when there may be (and IMO probably are) factors we haven't even identified yet that affect this on a wider scale.
    It's exactly what I was thinking. For instance, many Chinese studies seem to link the presence of Bisphenol-A with children obesity (but it has to be further studied elsewhere, and once again, I prefer to stay cautious rather than to feed you with lots of wild hypothesis insufficiently documented). And indeed, in any case being obese will completely transform the reactions of your endocrine system and therefore, your reaction towards endocrine disruptors.
    Thus endocrine disruptors (and there are many of them) may probably be one of the cofactors involved. During the last decades, our environment has become more toxic to us than what we would expect.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #134
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    If it doesn't make sense to shame a cancer patient, why would it make sense to shame an obese person?
    It doesn't make sense to shame any of them. But it make sense to make obese people aware of their condition, that they have a potentially big medical issue, exactly the same way we should make chronic smokers or alcoholics aware of what they are doing with their health. It is the case of any addiction related disease.

    One of the major issues is that addicted people rarely want to hear these kind of advice, even if there is no harm intended (on the contrary). That's why, just like an alcoholic will often lie about the quantity of bottles he's drinking every day, a majority of obese people seem to lie about their real food intake, even to their doctors.
    We know they are suffering. But we can do nothing to help them, all our work will have no effect if they do not want to cooperate. And a movement like this so-called "fat acceptance movement" won't help them, and will even have negative effects (since it's a lie). Why not create an "heroine addicts acceptance movement" then?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  5. #135
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I guess I'm not really sure what the fat acceptance movement actually is. If it's a medical movement, maybe not so much. But if it's a movement towards expecting people to mind their own damn business when it comes to my size unless they are me or my doctor or a loved one whose opinion I value (and even then, only if their opinion is helpful- you're not telling me anything I don't know), then I think I'm all for that.
    The main immediate issue I see is that this movement seems to be based on pervert lies. They proclaim everywhere that "health is not related to size, that most of them were born this way and can not lose weight even if they run 20 miles a day and eat three apples".... etc...
    It's lies, lies, lies. It's all the classic lies addicted people use to flee their responsability, and not to have the courage to face their problems. "Health at every size" is a denialist lie.

    I do not know how to adress an obese person about his addiction, I'm not always very diplomatic. But I know for sure that lying to them is definitely not the solution either. Somehow, you could say that this movement is encouraging them to kill themselves or to become sicker every day.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  6. #136
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    My last post left me feeling rather anxious because it touched on issues that are too sensitive I think.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    It doesn't make sense to shame any of them. But it make sense to make obese people aware of their condition, that they have a potentially big medical issue, exactly the same way we should make chronic smokers or alcoholics aware of what they are doing with their health. It is the case of any addiction related disease.

    One of the major issues is that addicted people rarely want to hear these kind of advice, even if there is no harm intended (on the contrary). That's why, just like an alcoholic will often lie about the quantity of bottles he's drinking every day, a majority of obese people seem to lie about their real food intake, even to their doctors.
    We know they are suffering. But we can do nothing to help them, all our work will have no effect if they do not want to cooperate. And a movement like this so-called "fat acceptance movement" won't help them, and will even have negative effects (since it's a lie). Why not create an "heroine addicts acceptance movement" then?
    This is getting to the root of a couple of assumptions. Not all obese people are addicted to food. I would also not assume that obese people are oblivious to their condition and risks to health. The only part of the pro-obesity campaign (and I think that should be the focus of the issue and not just being "fat") that should be focused on is actually saying there is no connection to health.

    I've noticed in many discussion this tendency to assume people are not self-critical or aware of their problems. I think the reverse tends to be true. I think people know about their own flaws better than anyone. Perhaps not in the case of true addiction, but food addiction is way more complicated than alcohol, etc. We all have to eat food, so there is no way to completely quit. There are also more direct psychological impulses related to infancy and early childhood and the connection to one's mother. Also, when there are psychological impulses at play, then social rejection increases the need to use food as comfort. Besides that our food sources are horrifically designed to make us fat and without nutrition. Then there are all the toxins that can have an effect on the system. Plus populations that survived famine are maximized to maintain weight, and there are other genetic factors.

    One cannot point to any individual and make a judgment about who they are based on their weight. We HAVE to leave the individual alone and deal with this on the societal level. There needs to be complete compassion and acceptance of the individual combined with the best medical information and better systems to solve the problem medically and culturally.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  7. #137
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    @fia is my favorite right now.

  8. #138
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    further more shaming shouldn't be tolerated period. i don't give a rat's ass if you think you're helping on the other person or not. because you're not. People try to shame me and as a result i carry around a lot of guilt and feel less than. it actually has the opposite effect.

    My brother went into a serious depression in part because of fat shaming, and in part because our dad wasn't around.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  9. #139
    half-nut member briochick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    @fia is my favorite right now.
    Mine too.
    -Brio

    "I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life; I have envied a great many people who led difficult lives and led them well."
    -Teddy Roosevelt
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  10. #140
    / nonsequitur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    My last post left me feeling rather anxious because it touched on issues that are too sensitive I think.
    This is getting to the root of a couple of assumptions. Not all obese people are addicted to food. I would also not assume that obese people are oblivious to their condition and risks to health. The only part of the pro-obesity campaign (and I think that should be the focus of the issue and not just being "fat") that should be focused on is actually saying there is no connection to health.

    I've noticed in many discussion this tendency to assume people are not self-critical or aware of their problems. I think the reverse tends to be true. I think people know about their own flaws better than anyone. Perhaps not in the case of true addiction, but food addiction is way more complicated than alcohol, etc. We all have to eat food, so there is no way to completely quit. There are also more direct psychological impulses related to infancy and early childhood and the connection to one's mother. Also, when there are psychological impulses at play, then social rejection increases the need to use food as comfort. Besides that our food sources are horrifically designed to make us fat and without nutrition. Then there are all the toxins that can have an effect on the system. Plus populations that survived famine are maximized to maintain weight, and there are other genetic factors.

    One cannot point to any individual and make a judgment about who they are based on their weight. We HAVE to leave the individual alone and deal with this on the societal level. There needs to be complete compassion and acceptance of the individual combined with the best medical information and better systems to solve the problem medically and culturally.
    This. Hence my "no blame game" attitude and stance that because you don't know what people have been through, the only effective and permanent solution is to support people, make losing weight a team effort, provide incentives to change lifestyle habits and increase education. Making people feel bad about themselves is counter-productive to the goal of making people lose weight.

    I wonder why the NFs seem to be so much better at articulating such stuff.

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