• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

The Fat Acceptance Movement

briochick

half-nut member
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
633
MBTI Type
eNFP
Enneagram
;)
Instinctual Variant
sx
devil's advocate:

Let's say you're not morally superior, fine, but would you be morally bankrupt/shrugging off responsibility if let's say you did have a condition?

No. Simply; No.

On a greater note; morality is a joke in our society. The only times we bring it up is when someone who's claimed to be "good" isn't, or when we look at the "obese."

That being said; I am very much in support of not equating high weight/ugliness/moral failure but we as a culture NEED to teach sugar/alcohol as being very very similar. Some people have a low alcohol tolerance, they puke after two beers. I have a low sugar tolerance (aka, I'm an endomorph. At least I have the guts, get it, guts?, to admit it). I've completely removed sugar and sweetners (with a single exception of an outing out with friends once every two weeks) from my diet. Who else does that? How many "normal weight" people do that? None that I know of. I'm the only person I know who has such a stance on sweeteners. But, it's what we need to do. I didn't do it for weight loss, though that certainly has happened, I did it because of a lot of complex reasons including needing to get my head wrapped around nutrition and body love properly since I'm going to be a therapist. We can't present sugar as the "reward" for "being good" it's like telling an alcoholic that if they stop long enough they can go back to drinking. We also can't present it like "they get to do it because they're good, and you're not so you can't" like a lifelong timeout. We also HAVE TO STOP starvation diets (I've actually heard people at a weight watchers meeting promise you that you're going to be hungry all the time for the rest of your life because you were bigger and you now need to eat 1200 calories a day for the rest of your life, and that many normal weight people are hungry all the time too, they just don't complain about it). 1200 calories and an hour of working out a day is a recipe for failure. And giving people 1200 calories, 200 of which are packed with splenda, which makes you hungrier, is just cruel.

Also, a lot of caretakers (social workers, teachers, doctors, nurses, therapists, in home care givers) are very overweight, because they don't get a chance to take care of themselves and they're so stressed by taking care of others.

Something being a health issue and something being a moral issue, especially when "good" and "bad" can be separated by two pounds, is really really bad. It's a failing of our society. (How many people glare at someone who's obese and very personally feel "YOU are raising my taxes!" or look at a woman with children using food stamps and think the same thing?) I am very VERY against in any way blaming or resenting or ostracizing or restricting or punishing people for their weight (or their economic level), I am very VERY for encouraging people faaaaarr away from sugars and to fruits and veggies and slow meals with friends and going out and walking or playing in the street or in the backyard and keeping a small garden and for accepting everyone no matter their size and judging people for the quality of their heart not the size of their waist and for setting a good example in behavior.
 

Bamboo

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
2,689
MBTI Type
XXFP
No. Simply; No.

On a greater note; morality is a joke in our society. The only times we bring it up is when someone who's claimed to be "good" isn't, or when we look at the "obese."

...snip

You said no...and then gave examples of 'yes, yes I do things differently'

And while I can understand why you may jump to conclusions based on other people's reactions, please recognize that very little of the above is something I'm suggesting or advocating. I get the need for defense, and I guess some people will take what I wrote as a reason to pile on the attacks or something, but...I'm not attacking you.

Maybe you're just adamantly making suggestions. If so, well ok. I generally agree.

Also I feel like you are glossing over the distinctions I made about morality and responsibility entirely.
 

prplchknz

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
34,397
MBTI Type
yupp
may I point out? I'm going to whether or not i get persmission. But some people take psych meds that fuck with their metabolism and most people don't want to admit they're on psych meds cuz of stigma. Me I don't care, if you don't like me fine i don't care I don't want to be your friend.
 
Joined
Sep 18, 2008
Messages
1,941
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
512
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
^briochick good point about low sugar tolerance. My friends are horrified that I can't eat most desserts, avoid chocolate like the plague and stick to savoury, soupy Asian foods that tend not to be oily. It's probably the reason why my weight doesn't go up, but it has nothing to do with my willpower.

Simply put, sugar makes me feel ill. Literally. Too much of it and I get a sore throat, my body gets over-heated (I feel feverish) and it's worse when it's in combination with dairy (I'm lactose intolerant). My mom is the same way, and when I complain about it, she says that I should count my blessings. Most of my sugar-addicted friends have expressed envy over my (weak) constitution and I see why they do so, but it has nothing to do with my personal choice and I certainly don't take credit for it. I also grew to like fresh fruit and vegetables at a young age and habitually drink a lot of water because it clears up the symptoms I get when I eat sugar! This same constitution means that I get asthma attacks when I exercise vigorously though. :doh:

That's why I feel that unless you have been really overweight before and successfully lost weight, judgment of overweight people is pretty much living in glass houses and throwing stones. The whole approach should be, instead of "losing weight to fit social expectation" and "wanting to look like emaciated celebrities", to celebrate being active, being independent even in old age, having energy to do things and trying to be healthier because it makes people happier. Crash diets and starvation actually builds bad self-esteem, an unhealthy obsession/attitude towards food and makes society crazier in general.

Being from an Asian nation with less of an obesity problem, we actually have school and company programs that aim to get everyone moving on a regular basis. From primary school level, kids who have a BMI out of the healthy range get tested for fitness. If they pass the fitness test, they're fine and carry on as usual. If they don't, it is compulsory for them to join the health and fitness club which meets every other day for sport activity and education about how to eat healthily until they can pass. At the company level, many corporate organisations have early-morning aerobics meetings and provide a free healthy breakfast post-workout, which allows people to socialise, feel good and lose weight at the same time. The companies' attitude is that a healthier worker is a more energetic worker and a happier worker who provides better quality of work and better service. Maybe because of my background and experiences, I think that when obesity becomes a problem on the national scale, blaming individuals and leaving it to "personal responsibility" is counter-productive.

I have heard of church groups in the US doing a mix of worship and aerobics in groups, which is really encouraging since the highest rates of obesity are associated with rural living where faith is the strongest (note that I'm agnostic myself). Regardless of faith and denomination, the idea of "worshiping your own body", "wanting to be healthier" and "believing that you're worth making the effort for" is something that should definitely be advocated.

Long story short; I agree that losing weight is a must. But shaming people is counter-productive and more than focusing on the fat, focusing on health and fitness is more effective and sticks better in the long run.
 

briochick

half-nut member
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
633
MBTI Type
eNFP
Enneagram
;)
Instinctual Variant
sx
You said no...and then gave examples of 'yes, yes I do things differently'

And while I can understand why you may jump to conclusions based on other people's reactions, please recognize that very little of the above is something I'm suggesting or advocating. I get the need for defense, and I guess some people will take what I wrote as a reason to pile on the attacks or something, but...I'm not attacking you.

Maybe you're just adamantly making suggestions. If so, well ok. I generally agree.

Also I feel like you are glossing over the distinctions I made about morality and responsibility entirely.

Ah, the interwebs, so many miscommunications. What the no was about was in response to your admittedly devil's advocate "morally bankrupt" statement. I understood you were playing devils advocate, I didn't think otherwise. In my defense; it's really late here so I've apparently gotten less articulate and probably more personal in my responses. I know you're not attacking me, and I wasn't trying to defend against your attack.

Yes, I was making adamant suggestions.

I may be glossing, it's very late, I'm not going to challenge my inferior T this late, I'm sorry I can't address it with the thoroughness and respect it probably deserves.

Off to bed.
 

Bamboo

New member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
2,689
MBTI Type
XXFP
Ah, the interwebs, so many miscommunications. What the no was about was in response to your admittedly devil's advocate "morally bankrupt" statement. I understood you were playing devils advocate, I didn't think otherwise. In my defense; it's really late here so I've apparently gotten less articulate and probably more personal in my responses. I know you're not attacking me, and I wasn't trying to defend against your attack.

Yes, I was making adamant suggestions.

I may be glossing, it's very late, I'm not going to challenge my inferior T this late, I'm sorry I can't address it with the thoroughness and respect it probably deserves.

Off to bed.

ok. fair.

For clarity, I'm not so sure about the morality bit in my mind, but I do believe that individuals come into this world with different problems and thus there are unique, individual concepts of personal responsibility that differ person to person, though how much responsibility people "should" or "must" take on is subject to negotiation between the forces of self and society. Ultimately there is not a correct answer, but I think people are faced with unique and by nature, unfair challenges and to some extent refusing to take them on *may* be a sign of refusal or inability to assume personal responsibility.

On the other hand, on another level, I question if anyone owes any debts for their existance or the big elephant in the room here whether personal 'health' (as measured by physical fitness) is really such a preeminant duty that one ought to perform for one's self. While it has obvious benefits, what you decide is most important in your life is your choice, certainly beyond a point where your health is "adequate." That might mean you eat so-so, but spend more time with your kids, or at work, or thinking, or putting yourself at risk in a war zone, or just experiencing the flavor of some juicy steak.
 

Blackmail!

Gotta catch you all!
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
3,020
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w8
I wasn't aware that the cause of Leptin resistance had been pinned down but something like sugar would not surprise me. I suspect it is something considered fairly innocous that starts the intial spiral into resistance.

So far, there seems to be a link with high fructose intake. But there are probably several other factors involved.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2584858/


I think good quality sleep supposedly helps with improving Leptin sensitivity too. The scientific community doesn't seem particularly interested in Leptin though, I think we need a leptin index of food just like there is a glycemic index of food. I think exercise might improve health not so much because you are burning x amount of calories but because of its beneficial hormonal effects. I think there needs to be more research into leptin resistance. Part of the problem with the dominant view on obesity is that it is based on our understanding before we even knew things like Leptin even existed. So there was an obsession with the few things we did know about (calories) rather than less obvious things like hormones.

But it doesn't mean previous views about calorie intake are false: they remain true.
Leptin will only regulate your appetite, so it's part of the issue, but the issue remains, at the core, how much you eat and what you eat (+ regular exercices). Leptin resistant rats will not become obese because they are resistant to leptin per se, but because they can't stop eating. If you give the proper amount of food per day to a leptin resistant rat (and nothing more), he won't become obese, he will just become a very hungry rat.

What studies on leptin have shown, for instance, is that fasting, severe or radical diets aren't necessarily the solution, because they will likely increase your appetite on the long term, even if you lose weight. So these studies might give us a few clues on how we should cure obese people, at which rate, and with which food... but the basic principle remains the same.
 
Joined
Jun 6, 2007
Messages
7,312
MBTI Type
INTJ
it's easier to accept you're fat than it is to accept you have a problem with alcohol or drugs. especially when everything glorifies alcohol and drugs

That's patently untrue in every respect. Every single commercial for an unhealthy processed food is glorifying it just as much as every movie that shows drug abuse in a romantic light. This isn't a pissing contest for who has the most crippling addiction.
 

Quinlan

Intriguing....
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
Messages
3,004
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
9w1
I don't understand how anyone could arrive at that conclusion. There may be mitigating factors. But economic conditions don't make robbery not a willful act.

I have no idea where you are going with that. Obesity is a BMI over 30, that is clearly a state/condition/attribute not a behaviour. Eating junk food and being sedentary are behaviours.
 

Quinlan

Intriguing....
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
Messages
3,004
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
9w1
So far, there seems to be a link with high fructose intake. But there are probably several other factors involved.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2584858/




But it doesn't mean previous views about calorie intake are false: they remain true.
Leptin will only regulate your appetite, so it's part of the issue, but the issue remains, at the core, how much you eat and what you eat (+ regular exercices). Leptin resistant rats will not become obese because they are resistant to leptin per se, but because they can't stop eating. If you give the proper amount of food per day to a leptin resistant rat (and nothing more), he won't become obese, he will just become a very hungry rat.

What studies on leptin have shown, for instance, is that fasting, severe or radical diets aren't necessarily the solution, because they will likely increase your appetite on the long term, even if you lose weight. So these studies might give us a few clues on how we should cure obese people, at which rate, and with which food... but the basic principle remains the same.

Of course it doesn't make them false, it just meant they aren't particularly helpful. It's like if the pilots in an aeroplane died and a novice had to step in and land the plane and the air traffic controller tells them how to fly "just rise more and fall less, it's simple physics" it's not really helpful it's just stating the obvious.
 

Blackmail!

Gotta catch you all!
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
3,020
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w8
Of course it doesn't make them false, it just meant they aren't particularly helpful. It's like if the pilots in an aeroplane died and a novice had to step in and land the plane and the air traffic controller tells them how to fly "just rise more and fall less, it's simple physics" it's not really helpful it's just stating the obvious.

Be careful with your wild metaphors!

Comparison is not reason! :nono:
 

Thalassa

Permabanned
Joined
May 3, 2009
Messages
25,183
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx
I find overt fat bullying very offensive and for some reason I've been in relationships when I was younger with men who thought it was hilarious to mock fat people (though one probably had anger directed toward his obese mother, granted, it was less immature in his case, and less overt, and mainly directed toward his overbearing invasive mother) ...but I find it appalling. I find it appalling that anyone would bully anyone for any physical reason, I am of the "do they deserve it?" camp of people, so I'm not exactly the most passive and agreeable soul, but I have always hated bullies, and bullying people for being fat is no different than bullying them for being short, tall, thin, wearing glasses, being physically disabled, or being mentally ill.

So why would I have accepted it in former boy friends? Probably because as a woman I've heard my entire life how I should never be fat, that's probably why. If you're a girl, apparently being fat is worse than being stupid or dead.

And that's horrible.

This why I EMBRACE THE FAT ACCEPTANCE MOVEMENT.

Call me radical, but I'm tired of people over 110 pounds thinking they're "fat." I have a very athletic build, I'm very firm, and naturally busty, and while some people love my body so much they've paid money to watch me dance or any other number of things, I have been called "fat" myself and it's a load of fucking bullshit.

Should I go kill myself because I'm not an ectomorph?

Apparently some people find me very attractive, and I'm quite healthy, and therefore I take serious issue with what I grew up being told "fat" was...and "fat" was apparently weighing 20 pounds more than Kate Moss.

On the other hand, I think obesity is very unhealthy and I don't think actual unhealthiness should be encouraged either.

I would honestly rather it be called "the acceptance of people within healthy body weights of all different shapes and sizes" than the fat acceptance movement, which does kind of imply that it's okay for people to destroy their health and be medically obese, and that I strongly disagree with.

I also don't think "feeder" pornography is any saner than anorexic porn.
 

Thalassa

Permabanned
Joined
May 3, 2009
Messages
25,183
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx
devil's advocate:

Let's say you're not morally superior, fine, but would you be morally bankrupt/shrugging off responsibility if let's say you did have a condition? Or you're genetically predisposed to alcoholism (no idea if that's an actual genetic feature, let's just pretend), and you decide to drink and keep lots of booze around? Or you're allergic to something, but you decide to keep eating it anyway?

Personally, I think fat people (and skinny people) should be able to just enjoy a damn cheeseburger in peace. "Health" isn't the end all and be all. If that's what they really want, let them have it. Christ, it tastes good. Not every fat person is eating out of shame or binging.

But I do tend to think that everyone comes into and picks up throughout life different crosses to bear.

Someone who isn't an alcoholic that can drink a beer and not decide to drink a whole case afterward hasn't done anything notable. An alcoholic that chooses to stock up their liquor cabinet when they know full well they can't control themselves - I'm not sure about the morality, but they are certainly demonstrating a lack of responsibility and self control. The non-alcoholic is fortunate in that they don't NEED to demonstrate special responsiblity. The alcholic does - if they don't want to fall victim to their alcoholism.

This brings up questions whether your sense of morality/responsibility is one-size-fits-all or individualized...and whether it's anyone else's business or not, anyway.

note note note:

alcoholism effects families and relationships in different ways than obesity and i'm not conflating the two.

Yeah this all makes sense...there's a woman on another web site I go to, apparently has some kind of metabolic disorder and she's even overweight on a strict vegan diet; meanwhile there's people eating McDonald's who look like a "normal" or even slender weight...especially when in teens/early twenties.

I sometimes have to stop and realize there's a certain amount of unexplained (and unacknowledged) arrogance in my mesomorphic physical traits: I basically can't stand not moving, I was a very active child, as an adult I walk and do yoga and swim and bike, but I don't consider myself a strict athlete and still people look at me naked and say "wow do you work out" and it's funny to me because I'm "fat" compared to very slender ectomorphic super-model types, but to some people, I'm just the picture of firm good health, and I just take it all for granted.

Because you know, all ectomorphs aren't supermodels, some have bad posture and are "skinny fat" and out of shape, and apparently it's not even right for me to take too much credit for my impulse to move, because it literally runs in my blood.

My mom said one of my great-aunts lived into her hundreds, and another lived into her 90s, on my grandma's side...and they both walked and gardened until very old. My grandfather died at 80, but I swear at 65 he looked 50 and was tan, hearty and strong.

A lot of this stuff is in your genes. I honestly think I'm actually built to withstand more eating and drinking and movement than some people.

A friend of mine just died in his 30s from lung cancer.

And here I am, in perfect health, just like la-ti-da...and I think about all of these people, you know, who can't do what I'm doing because...they simply weren't born as healthy.

You're right about the eating and alcohol thing too. No, they aren't the same, but it's still an apt comparison. Some people naturally have less interest in food and eating than others.
 

prplchknz

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
34,397
MBTI Type
yupp
That's patently untrue in every respect. Every single commercial for an unhealthy processed food is glorifying it just as much as every movie that shows drug abuse in a romantic light. This isn't a pissing contest for who has the most crippling addiction.

why do you read things that aren't even there? you look in the mirror and you see your fat. I never said junk food wasn't glorified. I didn't even mention junk food. You missed the whole point of what i said. I'm done. *washes hands*
 

Unkindloving

Lungs & Lips Locked
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
2,963
MBTI Type
ENFJ
Enneagram
4w5
I think a difficult part to this is the effects in different areas. America is primarily an obese and underregulated place, whereas other places are more liable to focus on certain food groups or the banning of harmful food sources. We don't. We are a profit country hellbent on sucking life force out of our society and in place of it stuffing them with an abundance of easily-accessible and economically available BS. & we fall for it very frequently.

Anyway.. I don't find that it's a bad thing to promote fat acceptance. I do feel we shouldn't judge people as harshly at all, but at the same time we should have health and fitness promoted far more. Drive people into believing in themselves and have others believe in them enough so that they choose to seek health out of a positive message, rather than after years of being belittled or 'less of a person'.
Personally, the whole 'shame me to motivate me' trick never worked on me. I'd easily be made bitter and say 'fuckit I'm staying fat because if I need to be thin to be appreciated, then I don't want it' --- at a point it does become a self-want to be fit, but it shouldn't take the opposite road to get there. That's when you see a lot of fit people who are still trying to fit ideals and are miserable despite their journey, or just not focusing on health at all and more obsessed with the sliding number.

I don't think we should have to tiptoe around each other, but that the focus has always been skewed to 'Oh you/they would look so much better if...' when it should more so be 'You/they might feel better and be at less risk for weight-related issues'.
 
Top