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  1. #51
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    I guess my question is, who pays for medical over there?
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post

    I smoke, but I have no objection to limiting smoking to the smoking areas. It's not for my good, but for other peoples well-being and convenience, so I don't argue. I still get plenty of cancer to inhale.
    This law in Japan is more like if they came into your private home and said you couldn't smoke there.

    Here we are getting close to my way of thinking. It's not that it bugs me that people are lazy, what bugs me is that the food is running out. It has lots of reasons, partly tied to the fuel prizes and biofuel and so on, but also on meat consumption. This is a major issue. I dont care if people are fat-asses, thats not a big deal. If they die younger, all the same. But if some folks don't have enough to eat because the country on the other side of the world has people three times bigger eating all the food... now, that is not fair.

    Dont get me wrong, Im not that big a world-saver. I eat meat. But I wouldn't have any problem with not eating it if no one else will either and it saves some people somewhere. I wouldn't have problem with one-child-policy if it keeps the world overpopulation in control. Just give me the right reasons for this kind of policy and I'm behind it.
    The people who like to control others will always come up with some kind of dire dialectic that makes it seem all reasonable and rational to follow their edicts.

    They won't necessarily die younger either. My MIL is obese and way into her late 70s, my brother was a string bean his whole life, dead at 51 from diabetes complications and stroke. Genetics plays as large a part in degenerative diseases as lifestyle habits.


    Quote Originally Posted by SDM
    As for the drive to reduce obesity in Japan, I think it's a good idea... as long as it doesn't become draconian,
    It is already dracionian when employement is tied to it. When they can order you measured and harassed at work.

  3. #53
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    I still think this is classic!
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    I remember reading in a Newsweek or Time article somewhere... God, someone help me remember which article this was... that if Americans earning something like $250,000 or above donated just 10% of their earnings to a properly-run resource allocation charity, they'd cut world hunger by 30 or 40% or something... I don't remember the percentages, but it was astonishing.... even if the percentage of world hunger reduced was 10 or 20%, wouldn't it be worth it?!?!??!?

    The Islamic edict of zakaat, the universal donation of 10% of one's wealth to the poor, would be an excellent principle for people of all groups to follow, Muslim and non-Muslim, theist or atheist, alike.

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    As for the drive to reduce obesity in Japan, I think it's a good idea... as long as it doesn't become draconian, like the beastly Indira Gandhi and her "labia-lipped" (thanks Rushdie) son's, Sanjay Gandhi's, crazy forced sterilization campaign.

    I don't understand how the argument becomes about affluent people being selfish, frequenty people with the poorest grocery budgets end up overweight because they don't have enough money for produce and low fat and end up filling up on more fattening, unpreshible, processed foods.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    I remember reading in a Newsweek or Time article somewhere... God, someone help me remember which article this was... that if Americans earning something like $250,000 or above donated just 10% of their earnings to a properly-run resource allocation charity, they'd cut world hunger by 30 or 40% or something... I don't remember the percentages, but it was astonishing.... even if the percentage of world hunger reduced was 10 or 20%, wouldn't it be worth it?!?!??!?
    That would increase unemployment, domestically. That would also serve to undermine farmers in those nations where there are food shortages. And even if hunger was reduced by 10-20%, I don't believe it would be 'worth it'.

    Publications like Newsweek and Time are pretty left-wing. Their ideology tends to lean toward what seems 'right', rather than what actually works. In other words, intent is more important than results. The only situations where giving aid actually works is with catastrophes. That's where organizations like the Red Cross step in. People who categorically support giving aid to third world nations don't seem to take economic expectations into account.

    The Islamic edict of zakaat, the universal donation of 10% of one's wealth to the poor, would be an excellent principle for people of all groups to follow, Muslim and non-Muslim, theist or atheist, alike.
    Is it really 10%? I thought it was closer to something like 2%.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    are you serious? Do you honestly think this is logical?
    As I said there are other factors, like fuel. When fuel goes up, the farmers will pay more to produce food. This means that there will be more and more people not able to pay for it.

    If we didn't have the luxury stuff like meat every day there would be a lot more grain and such. World hunger would be very much lower without us rich feeding our beef with food of the poor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    The Islamic edict of zakaat, the universal donation of 10% of one's wealth to the poor, would be an excellent principle for people of all groups to follow, Muslim and non-Muslim, theist or atheist, alike.
    Yes, but I think this should be done on government level. It is hard for a private person to get generous.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    The people who like to control others will always come up with some kind of dire dialectic that makes it seem all reasonable and rational to follow their edicts.
    I think it is very important to see if the reasons are right. If they do it only for to get their businesses more productive it is not that right. But there is a limit when individual rights are overrun by some more important issues. World hunger is one of them. If we wait until the oil is so expensive that the rich countries start to suffer, its too late. Then it will be no rights or freedoms for anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I don't understand how the argument becomes about affluent people being selfish, frequenty people with the poorest grocery budgets end up overweight because they don't have enough money for produce and low fat and end up filling up on more fattening, unpreshible, processed foods.
    Yeah, Ive heard about this. Its absurd that it is more expensive to buy healthy food in the states... I really cant comprehend...

  7. #57
    movin melodies kiddykat's Avatar
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    I assume that it's mostly for practical reasons. I mean, it's pretty pragmatic to pass on a law like that, especially since their healthcare system is universal. It would make sense to require that people stay within a healthy range in order to prevent diseases such as obesity/diabetes, which in the end, cuts down on medical costs.

  8. #58
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I don't understand how the argument becomes about affluent people being selfish, frequenty people with the poorest grocery budgets end up overweight because they don't have enough money for produce and low fat and end up filling up on more fattening, unpreshible, processed foods.
    I wasn't saying they were selfish. This was a value-neutral assessment of how much raw wealth would be required to drastically cut down on malnourishment. The talk of the wealthiest Americans was merely a way to put it all in perspective. If they gave you a massive number in the tens or hundreds of billions, the quantity wouldn't be nearly as easily grasped as with the analysis they gave. And it's one report. Economics is notorious for producing ten answers to one question, all with impeccable calculations based on shaky or controversial variables and constants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    That would increase unemployment, domestically. That would also serve to undermine farmers in those nations where there are food shortages. And even if hunger was reduced by 10-20%, I don't believe it would be 'worth it'.
    I think this is a poor argument. The food would go to people who are starving and to whom those poor farmers aren't sending their crops! These are the people who don't get anything, who have distended bellies and can't even think about a minimal 2,200 calorie-a-day diet.


    As for zakaat, pardon my complete mess-up of the figure... I was basing the 10% figure on hearsay (surprisingly from a Muslim friend)... it's actually about 2.5% and it's only incumbent on people who have the werewithal to give it.

    As for which policies work, none of the right (political spectrum) policies have been working either. So it's worth a try.
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  9. #59
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    I think this is a poor argument. The food would go to people who are starving and to whom those poor farmers aren't sending their crops! These are the people who don't get anything, who have distended bellies and can't even think about a minimal 2,200 calorie-a-day diet.
    This is such an idealistic stance that has no basis in reality. I've already explained the problems with your perspective, but if you just ignore what I said, there's nothing else that's worth saying.

    As for which policies work, none of the right (political spectrum) policies have been working either. So it's worth a try.
    We (western first-world nations) have never allowed the third world to develop on its own. To say that 'right wing' policies haven't worked is true only in that we haven't tried them. We keep intervening, either out of self-interest or self-proclaimed altruism (which is really just self-interest).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #60
    Senor Membrane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    We (western first-world nations) have never allowed the third world to develop on its own. To say that 'right wing' policies haven't worked is true only in that we haven't tried them. We keep intervening, either out of self-interest or self-proclaimed altruism (which is really just self-interest).
    You are right about the altruism not being real altruism. But I doubt that the dying people care if it's real or not.

    For how long has the western world been doing everything it can to get the most out of those countries that are poor? I think its "ok" to give something back, or at least try not to spend it all too quickly. The Japanese way sounds very practical, actually, to get the consumption down. If it went global, it could easily save many lives.

    Ok, here's some numbers. I got them from this place: Calories Per Day Calculator - Basal Metabolic Rate. I don't know how reliable this is, but the results are so dramatic that even if it isn't accurate, it should give a message.

    My daily need of energy at the moment is 2281 calories. If I was two times bigger, my consumption would be 3289. Basically that means that there are 1000 more calories to go around in the world. You see what this means on the big scale? Everyone who eats more than they need is responsible for the food prices going up. The same goes for eating overproduced food, or food that is shipped long distances. 1000 calories is a huge difference to those starving.

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