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  1. #61
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrinth View Post
    Yeah, sounds like a great idea. Then we can make having too low of an IQ illegal. Then we can make having cavities illegal. Everyone knows legislation fixes everything.
    Just dont make too low IQ illegal, wouldnt know how to take all the emigrants from the States in Europe
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  2. #62
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Why should they punish the victims of a terrible food environment which the government continues to openly support and condone?
    Then fix the "food environment."

    This has already been tried. When the US gubmint mandated healthier meals for high school students, the students weren't getting enough calories. Teenagers can't live off of rabbit food.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #63
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Actually you could get most of your nutrients eating pulses, whole grains, potatoes, and milk or other dairy products. You want to stock up on your garlic and onions, of course, and some spices.

    It's good to have some olive oil and grape seed oil. I take this for granted now, just after three years of living in SoCal. I'm just like "go get grape seed oil and five pound bag of Japanese rice!"

    Yeah right. Sorry, midWesterners, if I am being an asshole.

    But for the most part you can mix it up with varying pulses, veggies and spices (do canned on some, like Hunt's steams their tomatoes so has the best quality canned tomatoes, and in some cases frozen are almost as good as fresh if you're going to cook them anyway, they maintain more nutrients than canned) and so forth.

    Then you have your splurge items like if you eat meat, do steak or whatever a day or two a week. If you eat eggs, invest in those.

    That's what people do in poorer countries, they eat vegetarian or whatever most of the week, and have meat on weekends that kind of thing.

    It's totally do-able in a healthy way.

    Americans are spoiled, point blank. They just are.

    "McDonald's is cheaper."

    No, no it's not if you get the Angus burger with fries and a drink. There are web sites that add up how much it is to make plates of grilled chicken or fish with veggies and a starch for less than a McDonald's meal, if it's not from the dollar menu.

    I used to cook for some old and disabled people. I knew an ESFJ from a huge Argentine family who fed generations of her family. Big bags of frozen grilled chicken. Big bags of wild caught frozen fish. Big cartons of eggs. Rice, potatoes, pasta. Some frozen and some fresh veggies. Choose cans for things like chopped tomatoes and cooked spinach.

    It's do-able, it's possible, but I think in So Cal we DO have a greater variety: Asian markets carry huge bags of interesting whole grain rices, Mexican or El Salvidorian markets give cheap cuts of pork or beef. We are replete with ethnic markets here and aren't hooked on corporate chain grocery like it's life support.

    I'm sure you are a smart shopper. I don't mean to insult you or argue with you in any way, lol.
    I do believe that one shouldn't go around quoting Sean Hannity unless one is mocking him

    as I had already been thinking beforehand and the article also points out, white rice is nutritional shit and that's the cheap stuff

    also, to have VARIETY in one's food and have it cheap is even more difficult for people... need for variety and lack of time and basic cooking skills is a problem that a lot of people face in having a healthier diet. Not to mention that if you were raised on unhealthy food and that's what you associate with flavors and memories that's going to be the flavor palate that you are drawn to... that's what food IS.

    the man had a rather rough upbringing, with most of his happy food memories coming from the school lunch program of the late 80s and early 90s which isn't exactly healthy food by any means. We've been working on making his diet nutritious and healthy and still palatable for him over the past few months and it's taken some innovation and it isn't exactly cheap- it's hard to make food that people who are used to more intense flavors will find attractive in a healthy manner on a real budget isn't easy. It takes research, creativity and substitutes, for a start.

    Not to be practical here, but there's more implications than the idea that people just don't know about the wonders of rice and beans

    and if you don't want to argue, I'd suggest re-reading what you wrote for tone from the point of view of others... my sis has the same problem... most people don't see it unless they step into the shoes of others
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  4. #64
    Senior Member _eric_'s Avatar
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    Education, not legislation.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    No I totally get that, makes a lot of sense to me. Populations that derive from fertile, stable climates with a history of large scale agriculture have far less incidence of obesity. Whereas hunter gather populations don't seem to deal well with the introduction of grains, dairy and alcohol.

    Although I think in the future they might have more sophisticated methods than blood type, perhaps something based on haplogroups or something?

    Myself I have to avoid grains and sugar otherwise I become consumed with thoughts of food.
    I didn't like red meat as a child. I would spit hamburgers out in a napkin, and since I was raised in an old-school working class family, this was an outrage to my grandparents. Then again, I also didn't care for peas, and I absolutely love them now, so IDK.

    Any food related problems I've had are due to compulsive behaviors, like emotional or stress eating, rather than eating any particular food.

    On the other hand, I feel tremendously better when I stay away from junk food, and from what I understand, eating certain foods (pizza, ice cream, donuts, cookies, etc.) can actually chemically CAUSE compulsive over-eating because they don't send "full" signals to the brain due to lack of fiber plus the combination of fats and simple sugars triggers the starvation "store up for the winter" response in the brain, which worked for us in times where people suffered famine or less food in winter time, but works against us now in a time of plenty.

    So I think it's best for all people to avoid eating a lot of sweets, processed white bread, and to only eat foods like pizza and cheeseburgers once a week or less, as a treat or once and a while thing, lest they be chemically inclined to ...keep eating. And if you keep eating high sugar, high fat items, it helps you to pack on weight.

    I've tried doing low-carb and it made me feel terrible. However, trying to be completely vegan also makes me have weird PHYSICAL symptoms, like the last time I went vegan for a week, after 7 or 8 days my food was processing through my gut so fast it was bright green, which is indicative apparently of bile, and foods going through the system too quickly without proper nutrient absorption. Nice. Even after three or four days of vegan after a yoga retreat, I had this persistent "empty" feeling, like some vital nutrient was missing in my body. I can do vegan for a day or two, like to cleanse, but three days is probably max I can do vegan in a row.

    I think low-carb is absolutely DISGUSTING. When people say they've been doing low-carb for years, I'm frequently surprised they aren't insane, clinically depressed, or suffering from kidney failure, heart disease, or intestinal blockages. Then I'm only left to presume that they're actually eating GOOD CARBS (whole grains) and not completely low-carb.

    If some people really are healthier on low-carb, then they are definitely physically built differently than me, and the people who suffer things like heart disease from high protein, low-carb diets.

    From all my research, apparently the healthiest people in world consume diets with lots of whole grains, veggies, fruit, olive oil or soy, some fish or limited lean meats, lots of beans and pulses, and many of their meals are vegetarian though they do eat meat or fish a few times a week, no more than once per day. The Mediterranean and Japanese diets are the healthiest in the world, as far as I can tell. Neither of them are low carb.

    Vegetarian women also tend to weigh less than their meat-eating counterparts and have less health problems, like heart disease and breast cancer.

    I'm completely convinced that many of the world's diets were formed out of necessity because of what was available, and may have even worked better for people in times when there was less food available part of the year to kind of balance out the consumption of fatty high-protein foods.

    Still, I've also gathered that all people, in general, ate less meat before 1900, even in countries, like many in Europe not in the Mediterranean, consume a lot of sausage and red meat, but they didn't eat it all day long in huge portions. Even the French with their fatty, creamy, meaty diet actually only eat that way about once per day and the rest of the day eat a lot of whole grains, yogurt, fresh vegetables, and smaller portions in general, and don't consume processed snack foods.

    If high protein, low carb diets work for some people, good for them, but I definitely don't think it's good for all people, and it's definitely not good for people's finances if they're on a strict food budget, nor is it very sustainable for the environment, unless a lot of your protein comes from things like nuts, cheese, and beans.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I do believe that one shouldn't go around quoting Sean Hannity unless one is mocking him

    as I had already been thinking beforehand and the article also points out, white rice is nutritional shit and that's the cheap stuff

    also, to have VARIETY in one's food and have it cheap is even more difficult for people... need for variety and lack of time and basic cooking skills is a problem that a lot of people face in having a healthier diet. Not to mention that if you were raised on unhealthy food and that's what you associate with flavors and memories that's going to be the flavor palate that you are drawn to... that's what food IS.

    the man had a rather rough upbringing, with most of his happy food memories coming from the school lunch program of the late 80s and early 90s which isn't exactly healthy food by any means. We've been working on making his diet nutritious and healthy and still palatable for him over the past few months and it's taken some innovation and it isn't exactly cheap- it's hard to make food that people who are used to more intense flavors will find attractive in a healthy manner on a real budget isn't easy. It takes research, creativity and substitutes, for a start.

    Not to be practical here, but there's more implications than the idea that people just don't know about the wonders of rice and beans

    and if you don't want to argue, I'd suggest re-reading what you wrote for tone from the point of view of others... my sis has the same problem... most people don't see it unless they step into the shoes of others
    My tone? I said I'm sorry if I sound like an asshole and acknowledged the presence of lots of ethnic markets in SoCal and I'm just stating information, not necessarily directed toward you, but the thread in general.

    I sometimes think people imagine things in my posts that aren't there. I've had people say everything to me to "yes you are upset" to "your tone is abrasive."

    I think a lot of what people get upset about on the Internet has a lot to do with perception of the reader and people taking things personally.

    I know my problem is taking things personally, and I've been working on that, but I definitely am not trying to argue with you in any way.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Then fix the "food environment."

    This has already been tried. When the US gubmint mandated healthier meals for high school students, the students weren't getting enough calories. Teenagers can't live off of rabbit food.
    Oh please. How do teenagers manage to survive to adulthood outside of the U.S.?

    If they weren't getting enough calories, it's because of the public school system being cheap, and not giving generous enough portions of healthier foods.

  8. #68
    Retired Nicki's Avatar
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    Not with our society obviously. Most people in the USA are overweight so it would be kind of stupid to make it illegal. Also eating big portions of unhealthy food is encouraged in our culture as it's cheaper than smaller, healthier portions.
    I really like cats and food.

  9. #69
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I didn't like red meat as a child. I would spit hamburgers out in a napkin, and since I was raised in an old-school working class family, this was an outrage to my grandparents. Then again, I also didn't care for peas, and I absolutely love them now, so IDK.

    Any food related problems I've had are due to compulsive behaviors, like emotional or stress eating, rather than eating any particular food.

    On the other hand, I feel tremendously better when I stay away from junk food, and from what I understand, eating certain foods (pizza, ice cream, donuts, cookies, etc.) can actually chemically CAUSE compulsive over-eating because they don't send "full" signals to the brain due to lack of fiber plus the combination of fats and simple sugars triggers the starvation "store up for the winter" response in the brain, which worked for us in times where people suffered famine or less food in winter time, but works against us now in a time of plenty.

    So I think it's best for all people to avoid eating a lot of sweets, processed white bread, and to only eat foods like pizza and cheeseburgers once a week or less, as a treat or once and a while thing, lest they be chemically inclined to ...keep eating. And if you keep eating high sugar, high fat items, it helps you to pack on weight.

    I've tried doing low-carb and it made me feel terrible. However, trying to be completely vegan also makes me have weird PHYSICAL symptoms, like the last time I went vegan for a week, after 7 or 8 days my food was processing through my gut so fast it was bright green, which is indicative apparently of bile, and foods going through the system too quickly without proper nutrient absorption. Nice. Even after three or four days of vegan after a yoga retreat, I had this persistent "empty" feeling, like some vital nutrient was missing in my body. I can do vegan for a day or two, like to cleanse, but three days is probably max I can do vegan in a row.

    I think low-carb is absolutely DISGUSTING. When people say they've been doing low-carb for years, I'm frequently surprised they aren't insane, clinically depressed, or suffering from kidney failure, heart disease, or intestinal blockages. Then I'm only left to presume that they're actually eating GOOD CARBS (whole grains) and not completely low-carb.

    If some people really are healthier on low-carb, then they are definitely physically built differently than me, and the people who suffer things like heart disease from high protein, low-carb diets.

    From all my research, apparently the healthiest people in world consume diets with lots of whole grains, veggies, fruit, olive oil or soy, some fish or limited lean meats, lots of beans and pulses, and many of their meals are vegetarian though they do eat meat or fish a few times a week, no more than once per day. The Mediterranean and Japanese diets are the healthiest in the world, as far as I can tell. Neither of them are low carb.

    Vegetarian women also tend to weigh less than their meat-eating counterparts and have less health problems, like heart disease and breast cancer.

    I'm completely convinced that many of the world's diets were formed out of necessity because of what was available, and may have even worked better for people in times when there was less food available part of the year to kind of balance out the consumption of fatty high-protein foods.

    Still, I've also gathered that all people, in general, ate less meat before 1900, even in countries, like many in Europe not in the Mediterranean, consume a lot of sausage and red meat, but they didn't eat it all day long in huge portions. Even the French with their fatty, creamy, meaty diet actually only eat that way about once per day and the rest of the day eat a lot of whole grains, yogurt, fresh vegetables, and smaller portions in general, and don't consume processed snack foods.

    If high protein, low carb diets work for some people, good for them, but I definitely don't think it's good for all people, and it's definitely not good for people's finances if they're on a strict food budget, nor is it very sustainable for the environment, unless a lot of your protein comes from things like nuts, cheese, and beans.
    If the idea that people with different ancestries do better on different diets is true then it is not surprising nor particularly informative that the Japanese and Mediterraneans do best on their traditional diets.

    As for "healthy" whole grains, if we look at say Pacific Islanders they lived in excellent health for centuries without a whole grain in sight, they lived on seafood, pork, fruit, tubers and coconuts which are packed full of artery clogging saturated fat!. Yet poor health and obesity only became prevelant when grains and sugar were introduced by Europeans. I think it is perfectly acceptable and achievable for most people to exclude grains entirely without negative health effects (as long as the grains are being replaced with something nutritious).

    What I would like to see is more research into the hormonal effects of different foods, instead of looking just at macronutrients or calories. I think if this was done there would be some surprising results, where certain high calorie "bad" foods like say peanuts (which aren't seen favourably by most diets) actual have a beneficial hormonal effect and improve satiety and energy expenditure overall.

    Food that leaves you satisfied and energetic = good, food that makes you tired, hungry and/or craving = bad.
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  10. #70

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    The conversation seems to have moved to how we adapt to diets over generations. So I have a question I have thought about in the past...

    Don't we all have a responsibility to eat tasty food so that our future generations can enjoy an adapted biology to it?

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