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  1. #11
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    My cat is indoor or else I would of gave him a rabies shot, I doubt many houses have mice or bats in them to begin with maybe mice if you live near the city. Chemicals can be bad for you, especially for animals.
    You don't have to have a visible infestation to have mice/etc living in your walls or making their way in - especially in the country but also in the city. The chances are low, but the consequences of losing that gamble are extremely high for your pet as well as anything it might come into contact with, including humans. Many cities have mandatory rabies vaccination for this reason.

    I'm interested in your sources for the statement that vaccines contain "harmful chemicals", too. What are these chemicals and what is the evidence that they impair the health of animals at the doses found in vaccines?
    -end of thread-

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    You don't have to have a visible infestation to have mice/etc living in your walls or making their way in - especially in the country but also in the city. The chances are low, but the consequences of losing that gamble are extremely high for your pet as well as anything it might come into contact with, including humans. Many cities have mandatory rabies vaccination for this reason.
    So what all humans and animals now need a rabies shot because the chances of mice and bats coming into your home and giving you rabies are high? give me a break....I can see if the animal is outdoor but for indoor that argument is weak/borderline paranoia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I'm interested in your sources for the statement that vaccines contain "harmful chemicals", too. What are these chemicals and what is the evidence that they impair the health of animals at the doses found in vaccines?
    Here is one I've just found from a 20 year vet practitioner. http://www.healthypetjournal.com/def...px?tabid=17929 Yearly vaccinations are unnecessary for animals it's just a way for a vet to make a quick buck in my opinion. If your animal is healthy, alive and well there is no reason for fix something that's not already broken.

  3. #13
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    I thinking of vaccinating him in a few years he is about 7 years old now so at about 10 it should prepare him a bit better for old age. I just don't believe in annual vaccinations my cat has lasted 6 years without getting sick. He recently got a lipoma removed on his lower back which the assured to me was harmless.
    Vaccinations can cause more diseases than they prevent, including cancer and kidney disease. I don't get my animals vaccinated beyond the initial round and only the really critical stuff. You are right that annual boosters are an entirely unneccessary money-making scam. Vets know this, but justify it by saying it's a way to ensure people take their pets for annual check-ups.

    Following information is provided by a vet.
    http://www.catinfo.org/?link=vaccines
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #14
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    So what all humans and animals now need a rabies shot because the chances of mice and bats coming into your home and giving you rabies are high? give me a break....I can see if the animal is outdoor but for indoor that argument is weak/borderline paranoia.



    Here is one I've just found from a 20 year vet practitioner. http://www.healthypetjournal.com/def...px?tabid=17929 Yearly vaccinations are unnecessary for animals it's just a way for a vet to make a quick buck in my opinion. If your animal is healthy, alive and well there is no reason for fix something that's not already broken.
    Rabies is only given if you cross borders or are living in an area with a lot of foxes, or other animals typically associated with rabies and your animal goes outdoors. No vet in their right mind will do that unless specifically requested by the owner. And here in Norway, they dont do at least one of the vaccinations we do in Belgium as they dont have that disease here, so I cannot say I agree with you on the money making scam (Rabies vaccines are really nice pocket money-wise). The two that you get vaccinated for with cats if indoors are the two that are already in the system (Feline Influenza) or can be contracted via humans. With dogs, the vaccinations depend on the amount of social interaction the dog has with other dogs, resulting usually in a coctail of three vaccines, and an additional 4th one if the dog is going to a kennel for a short period of time (a disease called kennel cough).

    All I can say is, I used to work at a veterinary clinic and my head of staff said the following about vaccinating: while there is some debate about Cats disease vaccines protecting for two years, feline influenza vaccines are not and considering its contagious nature and containment properties that is never a bad thing to administer. She herself had a dog and 3 cats which got vaccinated yearly as well. She didnt start administering Feline Leukemia vaccines until her cats went outdoors as she felt it was unnecessary to do so, since they were not at risk. We had 7 vets there, and as far as I know, they all vaccinated their own animals as well (unless the animal exhibited a sensitivity to a certain vaccine, which is rare).

    Meanwhile, the stuff you can discover during an annual check...*shudders*

    Last year alone, I had 3 of my seven cats after their routine check up admitted to have their teeth cleaned, a broken teeth pulled and chronic mouth infections treated (rescue cats are more at risk for that shit). Those are things that owners rarely notice and the animals continue suffering. The same is true for abdominal tumours, skin conditions, worms, weight loss (an indicator of for instance problems with your thyroid), obesity (which puts your cat at risk for a number of things), as well as pain in joints, and the 'mobility system' of a cat by causes such as arthritis or injuries. Since cats hide their pain (solitary creatures do not gain any benefit in displaying pain to others), these things can be overlooked by the owner.
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  5. #15
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Rabies is only given if you cross borders or are living in an area with a lot of foxes, or other animals typically associated with rabies and your animal goes outdoors. No vet in their right mind will do that unless specifically requested by the owner. And here in Norway, they dont do at least one of the vaccinations we do in Belgium as they dont have that disease here, so I cannot say I agree with you on the money making scam (Rabies vaccines are really nice pocket money-wise).
    Oh come on. No one in their right mind is going to let you vaccinate an animal for rabies in a country where rabies doesn't exist!

    All I can say is, I used to work at a veterinary clinic and my head of staff said the following about vaccinating: while there is some debate about Cats disease vaccines protecting for two years, feline influenza vaccines are not and considering its contagious nature and containment properties that is never a bad thing to administer.
    The feline influenza vaccine doesn't guarantee protection since the virus mutates too frequently (as all flu viruses do). Plus the disease isn't fatal and the vaccine has been shown to cause kidney inflammation. Most elderly cats die of kidney disease. Coincidence?

    There is a clear conflict of interest with vets promoting vaccines which will make pets sick and dependent on further treatment. I think it's scandalous.

    I always know when my cat is unwell, just because I know his patterns and can spot anything unusual. I certainly don't need a vet to tell me. Any good owner should check their pet daily - not leave it to once a year. Most vets are pretty useless IME, and far too interested in administering unneccessary treatment just to line their pockets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Rabies is only given if you cross borders or are living in an area with a lot of foxes, or other animals typically associated with rabies and your animal goes outdoors. No vet in their right mind will do that unless specifically requested by the owner. And here in Norway, they dont do at least one of the vaccinations we do in Belgium as they dont have that disease here, so I cannot say I agree with you on the money making scam (Rabies vaccines are really nice pocket money-wise). The two that you get vaccinated for with cats if indoors are the two that are already in the system (Feline Influenza) or can be contracted via humans. With dogs, the vaccinations depend on the amount of social interaction the dog has with other dogs, resulting usually in a coctail of three vaccines, and an additional 4th one if the dog is going to a kennel for a short period of time (a disease called kennel cough).

    All I can say is, I used to work at a veterinary clinic and my head of staff said the following about vaccinating: while there is some debate about Cats disease vaccines protecting for two years, feline influenza vaccines are not and considering its contagious nature and containment properties that is never a bad thing to administer. She herself had a dog and 3 cats which got vaccinated yearly as well. She didnt start administering Feline Leukemia vaccines until her cats went outdoors as she felt it was unnecessary to do so, since they were not at risk. We had 7 vets there, and as far as I know, they all vaccinated their own animals as well (unless the animal exhibited a sensitivity to a certain vaccine, which is rare).

    Meanwhile, the stuff you can discover during an annual check...*shudders*

    Last year alone, I had 3 of my seven cats after their routine check up admitted to have their teeth cleaned, a broken teeth pulled and chronic mouth infections treated (rescue cats are more at risk for that shit). Those are things that owners rarely notice and the animals continue suffering. The same is true for abdominal tumours, skin conditions, worms, weight loss (an indicator of for instance problems with your thyroid), obesity (which puts your cat at risk for a number of things), as well as pain in joints, and the 'mobility system' of a cat by causes such as arthritis or injuries. Since cats hide their pain (solitary creatures do not gain any benefit in displaying pain to others), these things can be overlooked by the owner.
    I think vets and doctors are too manipulated by their medical community so they accept that all the drugs, chemicals, and vaccinations as necessary. I'm starting to notice that much older and more experianced doctors are going against their medical community and relaying on their experience with their patients. Although I'm not for or against vaccinations I think they need to be thought out before given because there seems to evidence suggesting that they are not as a great as once thought. A little common sense goes along way in my opinion, if your cat is an outdoor cat give them proper protection especially if you live in the country in the city. If your pet is not sick or has never been sick for a while, why tinker with their health?

  7. #17
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Oh come on. No one in their right mind is going to let you vaccinate an animal for rabies in a country where rabies doesn't exist!

    The feline influenza vaccine doesn't guarantee protection since the virus mutates too frequently (as all flu viruses do). Plus the disease isn't fatal and the vaccine has been shown to cause kidney inflammation. Most elderly cats die of kidney disease. Coincidence?

    There is a clear conflict of interest with vets promoting vaccines which will make pets sick and dependent on further treatment. I think it's scandalous.

    I always know when my cat is unwell, just because I know his patterns and can spot anything unusual. I certainly don't need a vet to tell me. Any good owner should check their pet daily - not leave it to once a year. Most vets are pretty useless IME, and far too interested in administering unneccessary treatment just to line their pockets.
    Really? Then why is it that I did not only have to vaccinate 6 cats with rabies, I also had to wait 4 months to then have blood drawn to PROVE that they had a sufficient amount of antibodies against Rabies in their blood so they could be imported in a country where they do have rabies and would like to keep it that way? Why is it that the rabies vaccine that is 3 years valid in Belgium is only valid one year in Norway? Coz they are that protective over here. Despite the risk that a vaccine might carry.

    Of course, once you are here and have proven that your animals do not have rabies, it is no longer necessary. Just like if you live in Flanders, they do not demand you vaccinate for rabies, it is only necessary if you go to the Ardennes as we have foxes there, and mandated by law when you cross the border.

    Also, Feline influenza isn't a strain of the Influenza virus. It is commonly referred to as influenza as it presents with the same symptoms as human influenza. Feline Influenza technically does not exist; it is caused by four different things: Calici-virus (affects airways and causes blisters in the mouth, lives in the back of the throat, is incurable), Herpes ( affects airways, causes eye-infections and is incurable), which are the most common causes of this disease. Then there is some strand of bacteria causing symptoms similar to pneumonia I believe -Im spacing on the name- , and the fourth one, I think, is a speculation that bird flue *might* cause the same symptoms, though I need to look that one up, and even that one is treated with scepticism in the veterinary community as cats do not get influenza).

    Have you ever seen a cat suffering from severe, untreated feline influenza? I have. In fact, I have one cat with both viruses in my colony who only barely survived when she came to me at 4 weeks covered in muckus and infection, struggling to breathe, with an eye the size of a marble and the other shut closed due to puss. The vet told me it was doubtful she would make it. Luckily, she escaped her fate, though her eye is irreparably damaged by the infection. A year later, he mouth was suddenly covered in sores, and I had to give her IV fluids every day for over a week, to keep her from getting dehydrated, as well as force feed her as we combatted the virus and got it back in check.

    If Calici breaks through, their mouths are so covered in sores, they rot from the inside out and are unable to eat, dying of starvation, asphyxiation or infection. IF it is Herpes, the eyes swell up to the point of not fitting in the sockets, though usually it is the muckus in the lungs along with the infection that causes it that kills them either by asphyxiation or from the actual infection itself. Now, the viruses are perfectly containable in cats with a reasonably healthy immune system (not kittens or elderly cats, or feral cats who have are starving), and those with bad immune systems can get theirs boosted by their yearly shot. Cats with FIV, or conditions that cause immuno decifiency, (even if it hasnt fully developed into Feline Aids, FelV or FIP, for instance) are extremely susceptable to both Herpes and Calici for obvious reasons.

    If you are going to argue with me on cats, make sure you do your homework.

    I may not be a vet, and no doubt a vet will be able to teach me still on this topic but I do know a thing or two due to my background.

    Note that I did say that it is up to the owner, all I tried to do in this thread was give people the information I've had access to in my years of service in this branche in order to make an informed decision.



    *********


    Fwiw, I do not doubt that you are a good owner..but so am I. And I can tell you now that despite my training, my experience and my care, I cannot tell when my animal is suffering from a chronic tooth infection unless I thoroughly check for it (and most owners dont even know how), or when their teeth are hurting due to damage. While a limp will often be clear, sheer soreness, or problems with their mobility (which is why a vet for instance will stretch the hind quarter during an examination) whether due to arthritis or injuries, as well as injury to two paws at one (causing a limp to be useless to the cat as both paws hurt) is way harder to notice, if you can pick it up at all. As I said, cats tend to hide their pain, and for good reason. That said, one can definitely tell when it is an acute problem, as they will often hide more, be more apathic, stop eating and generally change in behaviour, which an attentive owner will certainly take note of.

    For elder cats it is advisable to have their blood checked for kidney and liver failure ever 6 months, or at minimum every year, as the first symptom of kidney failure (drinking and peeing more) is often overlooked and the damage is irreversible. The sooner it is caught, the more of the kidneys can be saved. Similarly it is often not easy to gauge if your cat is losing weight (500grams / 1pound is a lot for them to lose!) which can indicate anything from worms to hyperthyroidism (especially in older cats), or even a stomach tumor. Granted, you can monitor your pets weight..but how many owners do this, really?

    Perhaps it is due to my background that I am this pessimistic, but Ive seen what can go wrong and how an animal can suffer due to human ignorance. And although it costs me a bucket load to have my colony checked every year, Im always happy to do it, and relieved when they cannot find anything. After all, I do the same for myself. Once a year, I go to the dentist and have blood drawn to check what is going on. Why not do the same for my animals?
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  8. #18
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Really? Then why is it that I did not only have to vaccinate 6 cats with rabies, I also had to wait 4 months to then have blood drawn to PROVE that they had a sufficient amount of antibodies against Rabies in their blood so they could be imported in a country where they do have rabies and would like to keep it that way?
    I underlined the relevant part.

    Also, Feline influenza isn't a strain of the Influenza virus. It is commonly referred to as influenza as it presents with the same symptoms as human influenza.
    It also mutates at a similar rate - so my comment applies. Mortality rates are low (other than for weak kittens). Vaccination doesn't necessarily prevent infection and vaccinated cats can become carriers of the viruses and pass them on to others. It's disingenuous of you to suggest otherwise.

    If you are going to argue with me on cats, make sure you do your homework.
    I have, my dear. And I know what I'm talking about. I know at least as much as the average veterinary receptionist and a good deal more than most, give how clueless they tend to be.
    Once a year, I go to the dentist and have blood drawn to check what is going on. Why not do the same for my animals?
    I didn't say don't take your cat to the vet. I said don't give it completely pointless annual booster vaccinations that won't do a damn thing for its health and may well give it cancer, renal failure and other problems. You seem to like horror stories and scaremongering but it doesn't impress me. I'd rather my cat got a runny nose than ended up like this and on chemotherapy:


    Thanks anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #19
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    My greyhound suddenly came down with lymphoma and died within two weeks of his dx. He had been a 7-year-old, healthy dog, nothing found at his yearly exam, which had just been 6 months prior to his illness. I remember my ex asking me did I think it was the vaccines. I said I wasn't sure. I still wonder. There is some good evidence that it doesn't help at all and instead does a great deal of harm, as Salome mentioned.

    When I had to have my Aussie checked out to be cleared to fly out here, I skipped on all the vaccines except for the rabies (have to have it by law).

    This page has some interesting information:

    http://www.critteradvocacy.org/Canin...0Guidlines.htm

  10. #20
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I underlined the relevant part.
    Actually, you left a lot of relevant stuff out

    As you state below, the vaccine does get carry the disease so in essence, they are requiring me to import the disease in a controlled fashion into their country. If they wanted to stay disease-free, they'd refuse the animals all together.

    It also mutates at a similar rate - so my comment applies. Mortality rates are low (other than for weak kittens). Vaccination doesn't necessarily prevent infection and vaccinated cats can become carriers of the viruses and pass them on to others. It's disingenuous of you to suggest otherwise.
    ...I'm being disingenuous how? I never denied that cats do carry that disease within when vaccinated. Im aware of how a vaccine works.

    You otoh just stated it pertains to the actual Influenza virus when you did not even seem to know that cats cannot get influenza. Forgive me for not believing that you are in fact more qualified. Now granted, my knowledge has its limits as I mostly dealt with the practical application and solution of this matter, so Im willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you might know more about the theory and mutation behind viruses, but are you telling me that you know for sure that both Calici and Herpes have the same mutation rate as actual Influenza? Coz that's news to me, tbh.

    Meanwhile over 90 percent of cats out there *are* already infected with either Calici or Herpes or both. Feline Influenza has won. Your cat if it has ever been vaccinated has it, as you yourself pointed out. And most feral cats, shelter cats and cattery cats have it due to its incredible contamination rate. Granted, it is the least lethal of the ones that you vaccinate for. But since it stays with you all your life, it tends to bide its time and break out when the cat is under duress. And yes, it is very treatable if caught in time, but during the time that they stress, they shed the virus. Only then. And if you have other cats, they will be exposed to that (and likely have a low immune system due to the stress present in the household), not to mention all the other cats it encounters if it goes outside.

    While mine gets outbreaks as she has both viruses and a compromised immune system to boot (which btw was caused by Feline Influenza when she was young), the vaccine does help to keep her outbreaks to a minimum. Meanwhile, my entire colony who are all rescues and have been subjected to this virus repeatedly, gets vaccinated to keep it in check. Most cats with reasonable immune systems never have an outbreak that way.

    Now, for the average cat who has no social contact what so ever and stays inside who shows no signs of problems with this virus, your vet will normally refuse to vaccinate for FI (they only vaccinate Cats Disease in that case). However, if the cat has a background of having been in a cattery, shelter, or there are other cats at the same place, they will, as those places are higher breeding grounds as well as stressfull on the immune system (especially the first two).

    I have, my dear. And I know what I'm talking about. I know at least as much as the average veterinary receptionist and a good deal more than most, give how clueless they tend to be.
    Honestly, Im not seeing it. From what I can tell, the average veterinary receptionist knows a lot more than you seem to realise or appreciate, but that's ok. Most people seem to make that mistake. On top of that, Im not just your average veterinary receptionist.

    I didn't say don't take your cat to the vet. I said don't give it completely pointless annual booster vaccinations that won't do a damn thing for its health and may well give it cancer, renal failure and other problems. You seem to like horror stories and scaremongering but it doesn't impress me. I'd rather my cat got a runny nose than ended up like this and on chemotherapy:


    Thanks anyway.
    ...how am I the one with the horror stories?

    You are more afraid of the potential possibility of your cat developing a tumor that may be somehow related to vaccines than of the very real reality of the viruses your cat already has or can easily contract from social contact with other cats?

    Now don't get me wrong, tumors do occur (in fact, Arwen's brother Merry was just diagnosed with a stomach tumor unfortunately), but then so does any of the diseases that you vaccinate them with.

    Now it is the first time that I hear vaccinations in general linked to tumors, but then I havent been keeping up with recent developments, so I cant comment on that. I do know that in very rare cases, there are cats who have an averse reaction to FeLV vacinations (a disease that causes actual tumors in a cat), *can* develop the disease in full (I have one cat with such a risk factor in fact, in my colony). One of the reasons vets wont vaccinate when your cat isn't 100percent in good health, is to keep the risk of this happening to a minimum and have his immune system fully focused on dealing with the vaccines.

    Fwiw, the horror story that I gave you is in fact not meant to be one. It is reality. It's sitting in front of me, purring after having defeated the odds. She might be my most extreme case (her and her brothers), but she was hardly my only rescue with that problem. At least tumors arent contagious; that is, unless they are caused by FeLV.

    But sure, for the average home-garden owner of their beloved kitty, this will never happen to them, at least not in these extremes. They might get unlucky though, while showing their big heart in adopting a kitty from a shelter, or ignorant when adopting one from a back ally cattery. Just as you might with a tumor in your pet.

    As for your cats runny nose: do not forget the runny eyes, so you can really contaminate the next cat with the virus. Oh and hot tip: if that stuff turns yellow, get to the vet for an antibiotics treatment. While you are there though, you can ask the vet to be sure to check for tumors


    Bottomline: Pick your poison, potential tumors or russian roulette in deadly cat diseases. Again, I can understand owners who feel the risk is minimal (something your vet should be able to help you assess) not vaccinating. Just know what your cat's risk factor is and go from there to base your decision on.

    Meanwhile I'm signing off on this thread with a picture of my sweetypie. She may be a walking vet bill but she is worth it



    ..aint she a doll?


    (if you look closely, you can tell that her right eye is smaller and more clouded than her left one due to her history)


    Edit: I officially feel icky after using this much Te. Damn is that thing scary/clunky
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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