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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    ...and what is that difference specifically?

    Diet = short term calorie restriction, "Lifestyle change" = chronic calorie restriction.

    Either way, the results are unimpressive and the side effects bad.
    Um, no...lifestyle change means choosing healthier foods and doing things like eating when you're actually hungry instead of overeating or always eating crap.

    It's not chronic calorie restriction, it's telling you to stop grossly overeating, which is an eating disorder TOO.

    It's fine to enjoy food, and I think it's important to eat a variety of foods to fully enjoy life, and I personally love to cook...so I'm not disputing that at all...however, there's a difference between what you're talking about and maintaining a more balanced and healthy diet.

    It's not idealistic, either. People do it all the time all over the world.

    You're creating a false dichotomy, and I usually see this with "fat positive" people, which I frankly don't think is healthy.

  2. #12
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    People are far more likely to keep the weight off, if they join say a 12 step program, or what ever.
    Part of the problem is being fat isn't just physical thing, it's a mind set. You literally have to reprogram your self. Many health professionals fail to recognize this.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  3. #13
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Um, no...lifestyle change means choosing healthier foods and doing things like eating when you're actually hungry instead of overeating or always eating crap.
    What you're recommending is calorie restriction (eating less than you'd like).

    It's not chronic calorie restriction, it's telling you to stop grossly overeating, which is an eating disorder TOO.
    It's incorrect to assume that all/most fat people grossly overeat, mostly because it's just not necessary, the calorie surplus required to make someone fat is tiny, barely noticeable day to day. 1lb of fat = 3500 calories, so you could go from normal weight to obese in ten years with just an extra half a banana a day. Not exactly gorging yourself. Not all obese people binge eat and not all binge eaters are obese.

    It's not idealistic, either. People do it all the time all over the world.
    Yes, but they're only a small fraction of those that try, why pretend that the ones that fail don't exist or that they do not experience negative outcomes from their weight loss attempts?

    Dieting is a treatment with a very high failure rate with negative side effects if it does fail, we should not treat it so lightly.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    The thing is we know, with great predictablity, that most of them will fail. This is a well established fact, regardless of what they should do in an ideal world whatever it is they do in practice fails in most cases.

    So the high failure rate is predictable and the negative side effects of failure (shame/stress, brain cell autophagy, avoidance of medical treatment, weight GAIN) are predictable, yet we tell them to do it anyway?!

    Doctor says eat less>patient fails>patient feels shame and stress> cortisol levels rise> cortisol causes heart disease> patient dies fat

    Doctor says eat less>patient fails>patient feels shame and stress>patient avoids medical treatment> patient is diagnosed with heart disease too late> patient dies fat
    The only person that can control his/her eating is the patient his/herself. The doctor can only recommend what he think is the best choice. That choice can range from eating less, eating healthier foods, or talking to a nutrition to follow the nutritionist's advice on what kinds of food to eat.

    Not telling the patient that he/she is at risk is withholding information otherwise. Like it or not, people do sue doctors for possible cases like these for withholding information that could of prevented the patient from having diabetes or an impeding heart-attack just because the "doctor knew about it but wouldn't tell me."

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    What you're recommending is calorie restriction (eating less than you'd like).
    You can eat 1,200 calories of fruits, vegetables, grain, and a little bit of everything else and meet most, if not all, your daily vitamins and minerals. You can eat 4,000 calories and meet none of them.

    Generally speaking, protein fills you up while food containing insoluble fiber has a similar effect. Both of these can be found eating nuts, grains, vegetables, and fruits.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burning Rave View Post
    The only person that can control his/her eating is the patient his/herself. The doctor can only recommend what he think is the best choice. That choice can range from eating less, eating healthier foods, or talking to a nutrition to follow the nutritionist's advice on what kinds of food to eat.

    Not telling the patient that he/she is at risk is withholding information otherwise. Like it or not, people do sue doctors for possible cases like these for withholding information that could of prevented the patient from having diabetes or an impeding heart-attack just because the "doctor knew about it but wouldn't tell me."
    Shouldn't that apply to withholding information on the risks of the treatment (dieting) aswell?

    A single IWL (Intentional weight loss) episode increased the risk of becoming overweight by age 25 almost three-fold in women and two-fold in men. In fact, women who reported two or more IWL episodes had an even higher (5-fold increased) risk of becoming overweight at age 25.

    These findings not only confirm previous studies that dieters may be more prone to future weight gain but also provide evidence that, this obesogenic effect of dieting is apparently independent of genetic factors.

    All the more reason to warn against the widespread obsession with ‘cosmetic’ weight loss - as I have said before, all weight loss attempts should be medically indicated and anyone attempting to lose weight needs to be warned that they may in fact be increasing their long term risk of becoming (even more) overweight or obese.

    On the other hand, in cases where weight loss is indeed medically indicated, considerable effort and long-term follow up will be required to prevent relapse - not only is weight loss not a ‘cure’ for obesity but, in many cases, losing weight can actually make the problem worse!
    http://www.drsharma.ca/obesity-will-...e-you-fat.html

    The analogy that comes to my mind is telling someone stuck in quick sand to struggle harder, rather than telling them to stop fighting and ask for help.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    Shouldn't that apply to withholding information on the risks of the treatment (dieting) aswell?


    http://www.drsharma.ca/obesity-will-...e-you-fat.html
    Again, that area is the patients choice. The doctor only said to lose weight. He didn't say to go on a diet like drinking more water than there is food to lose weight. He didn't tell you to lose 45 pounds in one month. He didn't tell you to stick with some diet system. All he told you was to lose weight.

    A nutritionist point of view? Losing 2-4lbs and keeping off those 2-4lbs is a lot healthier than having those 2-4lbs stuck on your stomach. There is also mounting evidence that if you lose only a few lbs, you can stand to decrease your likelihood of diabetes and heart-attack especially if you can keep off those 2-4lbs.

    http://healthvermont.gov/prevent/dia...ontrol_2pg.pdf
    http://www.defeatdiabetes.org/Articl...ity2040604.htm

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    What you're recommending is calorie restriction (eating less than you'd like).
    Eating less than you'd like is pretty arbitrary. Maybe in some cases that would be wrong, because you'd like to eat more because you're actually hungry and need more nutrition.

    On the other hand, eating what "you'd like" could mean eating so much that you're killing yourself...I mean heroin addicts might "like" to do heroin, but it doesn't mean it's good for them.


    It's incorrect to assume that all/most fat people grossly overeat, mostly because it's just not necessary, the calorie surplus required to make someone fat is tiny, barely noticeable day to day. 1lb of fat = 3500 calories, so you could go from normal weight to obese in ten years with just an extra half a banana a day. Not exactly gorging yourself. Not all obese people binge eat and not all binge eaters are obese.
    You're the one who is incorrect. Health, nutrition, cooking, and diet are one of my favorite subjects, to the point of debating becoming a nutritionist or going to culinary school...and I can tell you plainly that a person who becomes obese in ten years from an extra half a banana per day must be completely immobile and strapped to their bed, because your suggestion is ludicrous in someone who is at least somewhat active and not entirely sedentary.



    Yes, but they're only a small fraction of those that try, why pretend that the ones that fail don't exist or that they do not experience negative outcomes from their weight loss attempts?

    Dieting is a treatment with a very high failure rate with negative side effects if it does fail, we should not treat it so lightly.
    I don't treat it lightly - but I also don't create extremist false dichotomies either.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burning Rave View Post
    Again, that area is the patients choice. The doctor only said to lose weight. He didn't say to go on a diet like drinking more water than there is food to lose weight. He didn't tell you to lose 45 pounds in one month. He didn't tell you to stick with some diet system. All he told you was to lose weight.
    Why assume the people in that study used unusual methods?

    A nutritionist point of view? Losing 2-4lbs and keeping off those 2-4lbs is a lot healthier than having those 2-4lbs stuck on your stomach. There is also mounting evidence that if you lose only a few lbs, you can stand to decrease your likelihood of diabetes and heart-attack especially if you can keep off those 2-4lbs.

    http://healthvermont.gov/prevent/dia...ontrol_2pg.pdf
    http://www.defeatdiabetes.org/Articl...ity2040604.htm
    I'm well aware of that, pity that doctors will often refuse to treat patients untill they are no longer fat. I'm also aware of studies showing that engaging in more exercise and eating better quality food will improve health markers/outcomes regardless of whether you lose a few pounds or not.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    Why assume the people in that study used unusual methods?
    It is the unusual methods that most people tend to go by. After all, there wouldn't be a huge market in the diet industry. 2006 alone, Americans spent $35 billion on the diet industry

  10. #20
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Eating less than you'd like is pretty arbitrary. Maybe in some cases that would be wrong, because you'd like to eat more because you're actually hungry and need more nutrition.

    On the other hand, eating what "you'd like" could mean eating so much that you're killing yourself...I mean heroin addicts might "like" to do heroin, but it doesn't mean it's good for them.
    You prove my point, a heroin addict must engage in "heroin restriction" just as an obese person must engage in "calorie restriction".

    As far as I know though, a heroin addiction relapse does not make the condition worse whereas it does seem to with obesity.

    You're the one who is incorrect. Health, nutrition, cooking, and diet are one of my favorite subjects, to the point of debating becoming a nutritionist or going to culinary school...and I can tell you plainly that a person who becomes obese in ten years from an extra half a banana per day must be completely immobile and strapped to their bed, because your suggestion is ludicrous in someone who is at least somewhat active and not entirely sedentary.
    We are talking about overeating, eating more than your energy expenditure (regardless of whether you're active or sedentary). The half banana is the surplus OVER energy burned.

    If you eat the extra half banana without engaging in extra activity to compensate you'll get fat, it's simple maths. A lot of people might understandably not think to compensate for such a meager amount. My point is the actual energy surplus required on a day to day basis is trivial, this is a mathematical fact. You don't need to gorge to get fat, just eat slightly more than you burn. If you are genuinely interested in the subject I suggest reading more of the scientific literature, this might be a good place to start:

    http://www.nutritionj.com/content/pd...-2891-10-9.pdf

    I don't treat it lightly - but I also don't create extremist false dichotomies either.
    I'm not being extreme, I'm quoting well known research findings and experts.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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