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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Well, to start with, while I see some merit various approaches in exploring this issue, I have trouble defining alcoholic with being "diseased" or just a "social/relational game" or some other similar construct.

    Sorry, but my life was irrevocably changed by my father's alcoholism (which is still ongoing, 40-50 years in the making), and while I naturally detach from things, the issue is extremely personal to me and in many ways I cannot see my father as a victim... at least, except maybe as a victim of his own cowardice. It's hard when you want to feel sympathy for the trap someone is in... until you remember that they constructed the trap themselves, went inside, and locked themselves in it... and took others with them. I will be dealing with baggage from my father's alcoholism for the rest of my life, although the struggle to get past it has made me strong.

    It takes courage (among other things) to beat an addiction, and cowardice to me is a moral failing if you choose to succumb to it and never be honest with yourself.

    As far as "alcoholism" itself goes, I just see it as persistent out-of-control drinking. If you need to use it as a crutch in order to get through your life, despite how it's contributing negative things to your life or tearing apart your life, you're in a shitpit of trouble.

    "Problem drinking"? Yeah, whatever. That just seems to be a copout on the road to alcoholism to me; if it's a problem now, it's only going to get worse. It just seems to be a phrase for people who aren't quite willing to face they might be an alcoholic, it sounds safe and more clinical. Put another way, what's the difference between a problem drinker and an alcoholic? Answer #1: five years. Answer #2: The person who's doing the talking.

    If on occasion you get rip-roaring drunk just to have fun but otherwise you can go for months without the need to drink, I don't consider that alcoholism. It's not a lot different than snorting Pixie Stix or Pop Rocks for kicks. It's the compulsive nature of the drinking, or the sense that you can't make it without the drink, that to me defines the weakness of character. Yes, physical addiction can occur; but if you hate what your life has become and/or you are destroying people you love along with yourself, then you face that truth and climb out of the hole.
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  2. #12
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    so...it's different than the addiction to other drugs tho right? like much harder to become addicted to isn't it? like your body isn't going to become addicted to it unless you psychologically need it in some way...right? i mean...unlike heroine or something...right?

    and i guess...rather or not it runs in your family has something to do with as well.

    haha...right? right? god i'm an awesome writer...right? haha
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
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  3. #13
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I've always thought it was the NEED for alcohol, and especially if you don't recognize that you need it the way your actions dictate that you do. I want to be careful not to use the words "cannot control", because you can control yourself. People who do not control themselves choose not to, or choose not to admit they cannot, which to me is the same thing.

    A glass with dinner, or like Jennifer said the occasional "whoa, last night was crazy" are not, to me, considered alcoholics. Even if people did both of these things together, I would not consider them alcoholics. There's an extra element there that goes beyond mere indulgence.

    To Lady X - Imo, it's worse. The psychological addictions are worse than the physical ones.. Withholding cigarettes from the body, it takes like a month or something silly like that to get the nicotine out of your system. It's the mental need and desire that keeps people from quitting.
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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    no, it operates as a drug. It can even be "self-medicating" to replace dopamine, i think, or some of the other brain chemicals.

    Of course, when my father was "self-medicated," it didn't make him any better of a person; he remained isolated and incoherent and sometimes mean and even more depressed. Don't ask me. Sometimes people just don't want to feel things, and don't know how to fix their problems, so they choose numbness instead.

    I want to be careful not to use the words "cannot control", because you can control yourself. People who do not control themselves choose not to, or choose not to admit they cannot, which to me is the same thing.
    My tweak to this (as a general statement about control) is that sometimes the control has to be leveraged in not putting oneself into an uncontrollable situation in the first place. Volition typically does get expressed somewhere.

    My dad had enough control to go out and buy countless bottles of cheap vodka, and enough control to stash them all over the property so he always had them wherever he was.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    Senior Member Chaotic Harmony's Avatar
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    I truly believe my aunt and uncle are alcoholics. Here are my reasons....

    Any time they go out to dinner they insist on drinking alcohol... Even if they have their two young children with them. And when I say drink I don't mean they have one alcoholic beverage...I mean they have at least three...

    My aunt always uses the excuse that her job is stressful as an excuse as to why she drinks so much.

    We've noticed that lately my aunt has been hiding alcohol when adding it to her glass. (No one else in the family really drinks, we might have one or two drinks a year)

    My uncle throws an absolute fit if there isn't any alcohol at a function. (He'll be rather disappointed at my wedding... I will be interested to see how long they stay.)

    On a long trip out of town on business he took a flask with him to drink on the road... My aunt (who is a police officer) saw absolutely nothing wrong with this...

    I can still remember a few Christmas's back that my dad had to put my cousin's new toy together because my uncle was too drunk to do it. All he could do was curse and say how he's just not as good at putting things together as my dad...

    I wonder if their cars would be in better shape if they stopped drinking too.... It seems like there is always a dent or ding or even an entire bumper falling off their car...

    Oh... And I forgot... My uncle made the comment that he gets up in the morning and starts drinking, because otherwise his head hurts...


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    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    yikes...
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  7. #17
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kymbirleigh View Post
    I truly believe my aunt and uncle are alcoholics. Here are my reasons....
    Those are some good reasons.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    My friend takes a suitcase full of wine with her when she has to travel for work, because it's so expensive to order from hotel room service. This would not occur to me in my wildest dreams.

  9. #19
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    people abuse the word, and its like no I'm not an alcoholic, I'm not in denial about being an alcoholic I don't drink on nights I ahve classes I'm not drunk 24/7. yeah I've spent 3 days drunk before but those 3 days guess what i had to do? nothing!!!

  10. #20
    Senior Member HighwayChild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    so...it's different than the addiction to other drugs tho right? like much harder to become addicted to isn't it? like your body isn't going to become addicted to it unless you psychologically need it in some way...right? i mean...unlike heroine or something...right?

    and i guess...rather or not it runs in your family has something to do with as well.

    haha...right? right? god i'm an awesome writer...right? haha
    Yeah, I would say that unlike heroine or crack, it would take multiple use on an everyday basis to reach the point of alcoholism. It starts off psychologically but if you don't control it and reach rock bottom, it will become physical on top of that and reach the point of being a brain disease.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, to start with, while I see some merit various approaches in exploring this issue, I have trouble defining alcoholic with being "diseased" or just a "social/relational game" or some other similar construct.

    Sorry, but my life was irrevocably changed by my father's alcoholism (which is still ongoing, 40-50 years in the making), and while I naturally detach from things, the issue is extremely personal to me and in many ways I cannot see my father as a victim... at least, except maybe as a victim of his own cowardice. It's hard when you want to feel sympathy for the trap someone is in... until you remember that they constructed the trap themselves, went inside, and locked themselves in it... and took others with them. I will be dealing with baggage from my father's alcoholism for the rest of my life, although the struggle to get past it has made me strong.

    It takes courage (among other things) to beat an addiction, and cowardice to me is a moral failing if you choose to succumb to it and never be honest with yourself.

    As far as "alcoholism" itself goes, I just see it as persistent out-of-control drinking. If you need to use it as a crutch in order to get through your life, despite how it's contributing negative things to your life or tearing apart your life, you're in a shitpit of trouble.
    I think that like any drug, you eventually reach the point to were you are a slave to the drug and need help outside of yourself to find the right solution. I think it does make you a victim in a way. That doesn't mean you have to take pity on these "victims", they are the ones who slowly created their world of dispair, and may have been aware at some point but became a "coward" or wanted to feel numb and just quit caring or gave up.
    My heart does not bleed for them one ounce, UNLESS they themselves put up and show a strong effort to beat it and truly want help. You won't convince me to quit smoking right now and I don't want your help or else you're just nagging. When I do decide I want to quit for real, I would hope I have some support somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kymbirleigh View Post
    I truly believe my aunt and uncle are alcoholics. Here are my reasons....

    Any time they go out to dinner they insist on drinking alcohol... Even if they have their two young children with them. And when I say drink I don't mean they have one alcoholic beverage...I mean they have at least three...

    My aunt always uses the excuse that her job is stressful as an excuse as to why she drinks so much.

    We've noticed that lately my aunt has been hiding alcohol when adding it to her glass. (No one else in the family really drinks, we might have one or two drinks a year)

    My uncle throws an absolute fit if there isn't any alcohol at a function. (He'll be rather disappointed at my wedding... I will be interested to see how long they stay.)

    On a long trip out of town on business he took a flask with him to drink on the road... My aunt (who is a police officer) saw absolutely nothing wrong with this...

    I can still remember a few Christmas's back that my dad had to put my cousin's new toy together because my uncle was too drunk to do it. All he could do was curse and say how he's just not as good at putting things together as my dad...

    I wonder if their cars would be in better shape if they stopped drinking too.... It seems like there is always a dent or ding or even an entire bumper falling off their car...

    Oh... And I forgot... My uncle made the comment that he gets up in the morning and starts drinking, because otherwise his head hurts...
    Sounds like they have crossed that line into being dependent on it. Life doesn't seem as joyful without it. It has made them wreckless (well, they have made themselves wreckless, really). They know it's a problem but don't want to quit and make excuses. Sounds damaging and sounds like alcoholism, or at least on the verge of it. Maybe someone should talk to them, have an intervention, before it's too late. Might not help, but never know until you know.
    Last edited by Randomnity; 02-28-2011 at 02:56 PM. Reason: fixed quote :)

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