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  1. #21
    Senior Member durentu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I hear people talk about overdiagnosis. Does anyone know of a child who has been diagnosed where it seems to be misplaced? I just remember how HARD it was for my friend to get the doctors to admit that her son had autism. They kept saying they didn't want to "label" him and giving a vague sort of diagnosis yet because he wasn't labeled, my friend couldn't get access to the services she needed. He's clearly autistic that's not the point, the point is that doctors don't seem to commit to this diagnosis easily.

    Her whole life became easier once he was finally diagnosed.
    Specifically for this problem, the DSM-V will have the updated ASD section.

    Proposed Revision | APA DSM-5

    299.00
    Autistic Disorder

    Autism Spectrum Disorder
    Must meet criteria 1, 2, and 3:

    1. Clinically significant, persistent deficits in social communication and interactions, as manifest by all of the following:
    a. Marked deficits in nonverbal and verbal communication used for social interaction:
    b. Lack of social reciprocity;
    c. Failure to develop and maintain peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
    2. Restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, interests, and activities, as manifested by at least TWO of the following:
    a. Stereotyped motor or verbal behaviors, or unusual sensory behaviors
    b. Excessive adherence to routines and ritualized patterns of behavior
    c. Restricted, fixated interests
    3. Symptoms must be present in early childhood (but may not become fully manifest until social demands exceed limited capacities)

  2. #22
    Senior Member durentu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sLiPpY View Post
    The increase in autism per capita is staggering. 1 in 110 or 1 percent of the total population. What's changed in the past twenty years?

    Or is it just the next evolutionary leap?
    From alvin toffler

    agriculture -> industrial -> knowledge

    the more geeks screw, the more you get.

    A Girl's Guide to Geek Guys

  3. #23
    Senior Member man's Avatar
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    Yeah my immunology professor always goes on tirades about this. :PPP

    Autism hasn't increased, just better methods of detecting it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #24
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by durentu View Post
    Self diagnosed Aspie, IQ 146-165. pattern thinker, auditory learner. I'll expand on my perception of what grandin says about "difficulties with english"

    I don't have difficulties with the language in so much as it's a stupid language. It doesn't fit my thoughts at all. When writing, I have major difficulties condensing my thoughts to fit English. And when reading, it's very difficult to decode what the words actually mean. In short, the English language is insufficient and slapdash. To find precision and fine granularity in english is almost a complete waste of time. But it's a mandatory skill being in an english speaking country. This is why people like me find math/physics, circuits, music much more fitting.

    networks like these flash in my head one after another. It's not painful, it's just how I think. And as I form ideas I link networks across each other and draw links and interesting things. But because my brain work this way, I'm not handicapped, the language is too narrow.

    This is the language difficulty of the pattern thinking aspie like myself. When english is the output, there is a translation difficulty from this complexity into english language and rhetoric. When the input is english, there are incomplete and fuzzy links everywhere and thus requires guesswork or tons of questions to get a satisfying mental thought. Some of the questions are completely bizarre and unrelated only because the person being asked is unaware of the far reaching links that I'm trying to clarify or clean up.

    Insights into the pattern thinking mind is rare so I write it here in hope to help someone.
    Err. I'm going to have to ask: why haven't you tried learning another language, if English is so stupid to you? You may have to know English, but there's no requirement for you to think in it.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  5. #25
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Err. I'm going to have to ask: why haven't you tried learning another language, if English is so stupid to you? You may have to know English, but there's no requirement for you to think in it.
    Learning another, maybe more "thinking in pictures"-compatible language (if one exists) doesn't do a person a lot of good if everyone they want to communicate with speaks English. I don't think durentu especially wants to think in a language- he's probably happy with the non-verbal thinking format, just has trouble translating it when he wants to communicate with others.

    This is the impression I get of my son's language delays. He has trouble expressing himself verbally, but he's extremely smart. Scary smart. And I don't think that's just Mom-talk. He just has a non-verbal thinking style, I believe, and has trouble translating his thoughts into the English he has to speak to communicate with us.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #26
    Senior Member durentu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Err. I'm going to have to ask: why haven't you tried learning another language, if English is so stupid to you? You may have to know English, but there's no requirement for you to think in it.
    I did learn another language as a child. I spoke music. The trouble is that this world was ripped from me and in essence, I was maimed. From where my mind was free to express like a poet, I'm now limited to 'yes' and 'no' blinks of the eye. It really is that frustrating to me.

    To speak in a language does define the thoughts. To speak in a language requires the speaker to think within the confines of that language. In a rigid sense, the Oxford dictionary is the complete set of thoughts an English speaking human is allowed to have. While it can be very vast and colorful, the underlying constructs of verbal/written language are alien to me. At the core, to speak a language is to think in a certain way.

    The best way I can describe it is through proxy: synesthesia. Some people have this neurological condition where things appear as colors to people. Friday is blue, March is red, 999 is a deep brown, 3.1415(pi) is a beautiful landscape etc. This is qualia: the things of subjective experience that cannot be explained to another without a common understanding. It wasn't until recently that I noticed that people thought in words. When speaking, they see words in their heads. For the above syntheses, they see pictures and colors first, then the word. Not bad because it's fairly concrete and accurate. For me, the thoughts are abstract patterns which may not have a direct linguistic language correlation.

    For instance: If we both see a mug, what do you see in your mind's eye? Probably the word 'cup' in your mind with some other things like 'coffee/tea' or 'hot' etc.

    When I see a cup, I see a donut, I see a super galaxy and a child's entire lifetime. I see all these and few others at the same time. Let me explain.

    1. The donut: if the cup was made out of clay, you can mold a cup into a donut and back without ripping or tearing the clay.

    2. The super galaxy: Now take the donut and squash it to an atom's width. It will have a hole in the center. This is the black hole and the atom's are solar systems/planets in the galaxy.

    3. The child's lifetime: A child must always have something missing from their life. If it was complete, then they would be content, and there's nothing to strive for. Thus while the clay is malleable to all extents of the imagination, there is still have hole, or missing piece that a child can strive for. For some, this is called happiness, perfection, god: That thing which cannot be obtained, but the effort is worthy.

    As a child myself, I would blurt mis-identified things. Imagine my parents "What this? Can you say cup?" and I say "donut". After 30 minutes of cup/donut and telling me I'm wrong, they give me a donut. To which I would chuck the donut and start crying.

    The trouble with thinking in abstract patterns is when being forced to speak quickly (verbal fights, speaking with managers/coworkers, asking a girl out for date, being 'normal' at parties, defending yourself in court/police etc).

    It might be pointless to explain my difficulty with language, through language. I may have to make a movie.

  7. #27
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    durentu, it makes perfect sense and it gives me an invaluable insight into my son's mind. Thank you.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  8. #28
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    My older son didn't seem overly bothered by his speech delay, but it drove my younger son nuts.

    He would grab my face and hold it and make me say things until I got the right thing he wanted to say. He was so frustrated that sometimes he would just shriek.

    I remember one time when we were at a shopping mall he started shrieking so loud and wouldn't stop. Looking back, the people, the noise, the high ceilings, etc must have been like propping his eyes open and shining a spotlight into them or putting a funnel down his throat and pouring Tabasco sauce down him. But he couldn't talk, so we didn't know.

    My whole family thought we were horrible for spoiling our sons so much to make them so bratty. They weren't bratty. They were freaked out.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #29
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    My point was that English is a stupid language. The more people have to learn a language, the simpler it gets -- thus English and Chinese, and with English's bastard ancestry, it's no surprise it's even stupider. Which is why I'm wondering if another language would be more suited to your needs.

    As a synesthete, I can tell you, it's not exactly like that...
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    My point was that English is a stupid language. The more people have to learn a language, the simpler it gets -- thus English and Chinese,
    Yes, English is a very "functional" language

    and with English's bastard ancestry, it's no surprise it's even stupider.
    English has the same ancestry as French and Russian. They all sprung from a common Indo-European language although they are structurally different. The fact that English is about 1/3 French makes it more similar to a romance language than it initially appears. I'm not sure what you mean by "bastardized" but all languages change and evolve.

    Also, stupider isn't a word - kind of ironic for someone who is complaining about the language she's using being "bastardized."

    Which is why I'm wondering if another language would be more suited to your needs.
    I've always wanted to learn to speak a Slavik language, myself.

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