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To vaccinate or not to vaccinate?

Gerbah

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What do you think of vaccinations?

I've recently started reading up on arguments against them and find them pretty scary. If I had known there was so much controversy about it I would have done research before. I'm not a medical professional though so when I read such-and-such report I just have to take their word for it. I need to read a lot more about the topic to feel more confident about my decisions and was wondering what others here think about the issue. E.g. can you recommend any particular reading material or websites? What have your experiences been? Do you know if it's possible to remove a vaccine from your system?
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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After much researching and considering, we only do diptheria and tetanus, and only begin after age 2. I would consider others if we traveled to other countries on a frequent basis.
 

Lux

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Well, this is a very personal issue and every family is going to be different.

I think both sides have their own scare tactics. You have to bypass all the hysteria on both sides to reach the middle.

That being said, in the beginning, I was more weary of vaccinating my son, but in the end, after doing my own research, I decided that vaccinating was better in my personal opinion than not doing it. I have read both sides of the argument and have spoken with many medical professionals.

I did however postpone his Hepatitis B vaccine. Instead of him having it at birth, his Pediatrician agreed to wait until he was a few months old.

Good luck. :)
 

miss fortune

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For kids, I don't know, I have none

for me? I'm vaccinated against everything probably :doh: travel to south america will do that! I'd prefer NOT to get yellow fever!
 

Gerbah

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After much researching and considering, we only do diptheria and tetanus, and only begin after age 2. I would consider others if we traveled to other countries on a frequent basis.

Why did you decide on those two?

I think both sides have their own scare tactics. You have to bypass all the hysteria on both sides to reach the middle.

Good luck. :)

Thank you :) Yes, both sides are scary. I was already getting hysterical after reading the anti-vaccine arguments :( I just wish I had researched the issue before having my baby vaccinated. You grow up in this culture where they tell you this is what you need to be safe and they don't tell you that there is another side to the coin so that you are at least aware that there are alternatives. This is what is most upsetting to me.

I am losing more and more trust in doctors, also based on other experiences not to do with vaccines.

for me? I'm vaccinated against everything probably :doh: travel to south america will do that! I'd prefer NOT to get yellow fever!

A family friend has said that he would vaccinate his children against certain diseases but not all of them, just the really bad ones that could leave you paralysed or something. I don't know about when I was a baby but as far back as I remember, I only ever got one vaccine, and that was only because someone came to my school to vaccinate all the kids in the school, not because of my parents. Even so I've never had any typical childhood disease like measles, mumps, etc. and rarely even get colds. So that also makes me wonder how necessary it is to inject toxins and such into your body. I'm also very suspicious of the pharmaceutical industry because of the corruption that goes on in it. I don't think every person working in pharma has bad intentions, but I do think there is enough corruption in it to make me distrustful of what they say I or my children need.
 

ajblaise

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Get the damn vaccinations. :yes:

All there is is a bunch of weak conspiracy theory stuff about how they're to brainwash us or give us disease.

But in reality, vaccines are the reason we live to 80+ years old instead of being dead by 40. You don't hear about crap like polio or smallpox that much anymore, thanks to vaccine. And it's the reason why we'll never have a bubonic plague again.
 

Lux

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Thank you :) Yes, both sides are scary. I was already getting hysterical after reading the anti-vaccine arguments :( I just wish I had researched the issue before having my baby vaccinated. You grow up in this culture where they tell you this is what you need to be safe and they don't tell you that there is another side to the coin so that you are at least aware that there are alternatives. This is what is most upsetting to me.

I am losing more and more trust in doctors, also based on other experiences not to do with vaccines.

After my research I found I trusted the doctors more, to be honest.

There is always another option, but the ramifications of not doing it seemed, to me at least, much worse than the alternative.

Also please keep in mind studies are being done constantly because this is such a big issue. What you are reading from 2006, for an example, may not hold true today.

Medicine changes frequently, as it should.
 

Gerbah

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Get the damn vaccinations. :yes:

All there is a bunch of weak conspiracy theory stuff about how they're to brainwash us or give us disease.

But in reality, vaccines are the reason we live to 80+ years old instead of being dead by 40. You don't hear about polio or smallpox that much anymore, thanks to vaccine.

I'm trying to avoid the conspiracy-theory stuff and fear-mongering and read things written by qualified experts in the field. To me, what they say is not conspiracy. I find it very convincing and well-intentioned at the very least, as I'm sure those on the other side of fence are too. But as I said at the beginning, since I'm not a medical professional myself, I'm not in a position to really judge how good anyone's argument is.

I can't even really trust the average GP because as far as I understand, doctors are trained to diagnose disease but the drugs they prescribe are determined by the pharmaceutical industry. So my paediatrician doesn't necessarily know the details. So I am trying to find things written by vaccine research specialists. Heck, I had some irritation on my hand once and the doctor gasped and said, scabies, and gave me some ointment for it that made it worse before getting better but then it came back. I then went back to the doctor but happened to get another doctor at the same practice who was in a chatty mood and said that there is an inside joke in the medical profession that skin specialists don't actually really know what causes skin conditions. But they have a good guess. And he didn't think it was scabies. He prescribed something mild and said to check if I was reacting badly to something I was using in the home. It turns out I am allergic on my left hand only (not the right one) to washing-up liquid.

Those sorts of things make me distrust that doctors really know what they're doing sometimes and if they just tell you the easiest spiel for them.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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Get the damn vaccinations. :yes:

All there is is a bunch of weak conspiracy theory stuff about how they're to brainwash us or give us disease.

But in reality, vaccines are the reason we live to 80+ years old instead of being dead by 40. You don't hear about crap like polio or smallpox that much anymore, thanks to vaccine. And it's the reason why we'll never have a bubonic plague again.

It's a good idea to investigate on a vaccine by vaccine basis, imo, if you have the time and inclination to do so. Vaccines have done a lot of good, but that doesn't mean that every vaccine and time frame in which they are recommended are necessarily the best for each person. I like to make informed choices when it comes to my most precious children.

There is no vaccine routinely given for bubonic plague. It is a bacterial disease, treatable by antibiotics. And it could recur again at any time.

One vaccine that is a ridiculous example of sheer public health policies, meaning you are a number and a statistic, is the Hep B vaccine given to babies. The only way one gets Hep B is through blood or body fluids, or from an infected birth mother, or family member. It is contracted more along the lines of an STI, or due to risky behavior. I think the immunization schedule for it is three vaccines, beginning at birth and continuing in their first year. I think this is analogous to child abuse. If or when kids become sexually active, they should have access to it, but to propagandize all mothers to give it when women are in labor in the hospital is overkill. Plus, they do not even know if antibodies will still be produced in the body later in life when the child does become sexually active, or participate in risky behaviors, necessitating more hepatitis B injections anyway.

That is just one example of why parents really do need to be informed. I chose to do tetanus because it exists everywhere and death from tetanus is a real possibility; I don't want to worry about every puncture wound. Diptheria carries with it a 10% mortality rate, which is good enough for me. I can see a good arguement for getting pertussis because I've heard of very sick babies from that; it can be a very scary illness. As far as the others, I don't think it's so bad for children to get sick. I stay home with them, they are not in daycare, so they are not only not as likely to be exposed, but I am there to take care of them. And I breastfeed so long that that protects them and makes them get well faster too.

Furthermore, there are more and more parent, and even physician groups, speaking out against vaccines; and some evidence to show that autism spectrum disorders are exascerbated by some vaccines. There are even more anecdotal stories about kids having seizures after routine vaccinations. Doctors are great at what they do, but you are still at the mercy of their own biases. Be wise and research for yourself, then you will be able to speak candidly to your health care professional.
 

Charmed Justice

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We decide on what vaccines we'll have administered by comparing the relative risk of disease to the side effects. The ones we agree on get spread out over the course of months instead of being doubled and tripled up like many doctors do.
 

kyuuei

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Im pretty sure I'm one of the few people I know my age that has a small pox vaccination.

The military pretty much shoots you up full of everything you can possibly stick in a needle. I'm not dead or cancerous yet.
 

Venom

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Furthermore, there are more and more parent, and even physician groups, speaking out against vaccines; and some evidence to show that autism spectrum disorders are exascerbated by some vaccines..

You chose your words carefully. But reading between the lines, the association with autism and vaccines is just not a very credible idea. It came from a doctor who reasoned that kids get vaccines around the same time autism "appears". Correlation is not causation, and the same doctor then tried to convince everyone that we could cure autism through chelation (some kids got pretty messed up from chelation).

The point is, there isnt a lot of evidence that vaccines cause autism. With that said though, vaccines are not a magic bullet. You should be careful about squalene, which is an adjuvant not used since the gulf war. There is a debate about its safety. Apparently its been added back in for the swine flu vaccine. who knows...
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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You chose your words carefully. But reading between the lines, the association with autism and vaccines is just not a very credible idea. It came from a doctor who reasoned that kids get vaccines around the same time autism "appears". Correlation is not causation, and the same doctor then tried to convince everyone that we could cure autism through chelation (some kids got pretty messed up from chelation).

The point is, there isnt a lot of evidence that vaccines cause autism. With that said though, vaccines are not a magic bullet. You should be careful about squalene, which is an adjuvant not used since the gulf war. There is a debate about its safety. Apparently its been added back in for the swine flu vaccine. who knows...

Yep, I guess you are right. This was just published: British Journal Retracts Paper Linking Autism and Vaccines - NYTimes.com

And this is the latest from the CDC:


Q: Do vaccines cause autism spectrum disorders (ASDs)?

A: Many studies that have looked at whether there is a relationship between vaccines and autism spectrum disorders (ASDs). To date, the studies continue to show that vaccines are not associated with ASDs.
However, CDC knows that some parents and others still have concerns. To address these concerns, CDC is part of the Inter-Agency Autism Coordinating Committee (IACC) , which is working with the National Vaccine Advisory Committee (NVAC) on this issue. The job of the NVAC is to advise and make recommendations regarding the National Vaccine Program. Communication between the IACC and NVAC will allow each group to share skills and knowledge, improve coordination, and promote better use of research resources on vaccine topics.
For more information about vaccines and ASDs, see:



Still, always good to consider all your options.

As a side note, the CDC is calling the increased rate of ASD (autism spectrum disorders) "an urgent public health concern." My personal theory is that it is related to amount ultrasonography exposure in utero........
 

Gerbah

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It's a good idea to investigate on a vaccine by vaccine basis, imo, if you have the time and inclination to do so. Vaccines have done a lot of good, but that doesn't mean that every vaccine and time frame in which they are recommended are necessarily the best for each person. I like to make informed choices when it comes to my most precious children.

That does sound like a good way to go.

The point is, there isnt a lot of evidence that vaccines cause autism.

From what I've read, it seems that there just haven't been a lot of studies done on key questions related to vaccines. (9 Questions That Stump Every Pro-Vaccine Advocate and Their Claims)

I have also read that it's generally unpredictable how a child will react to a vaccine, not only because of the lack of tests, but also because it can depend on the child's particular genetic predisposition and what other toxins and stresses they are exposed to later in life after the vaccine has been injected. If for example a child has a certain genetic condition or disorder, in combination with a certain vaccine, this can be lethal. One child's/person's tolerance level can be higher than another's. It seems to depend on when your immune system reaches critical mass and it's all too much and you get a disease.


To be honest, I trust hardly any news or information coming out of mainstream media, such as NY Times. And after reading about Jane Burgermeister's experiences with The Lancet, it seems corruption in the medical industry includes such journals also.
 

Venom

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From what I've read, it seems that there just haven't been a lot of studies done on key questions related to vaccines. (9 Questions That Stump Every Pro-Vaccine Advocate and Their Claims)

I think the issue is that the main assumptions that a study would ride on just dont hold up. Autism naturally comes on from 0 to 2. The same time as vaccines. Its correlation, not causation.

To be honest, I trust hardly any news or information coming out of mainstream media, such as NY Times. And after reading about Jane Burgermeister's experiences with The Lancet, it seems corruption in the medical industry includes such journals also.

so you're admitting to being a conspiracy theorist. How else are we going to falsify your beliefs if you wont trust any information? :rofl1:

AGA said:
As a side note, the CDC is calling the increased rate of ASD (autism spectrum disorders) "an urgent public health concern." My personal theory is that it is related to amount ultrasonography exposure in utero........

Ive done research for school surveying literature. I think its largely due to the increase in education and marking out like minded people for marriage. Let me explain. When two parents of highly systematizing nature mate, their child is of much higher likely hood to have a ASD. A lot of the hot spots for autism is around areas where really smart people are likely to be married.

Some ASDs like Aspergers are even now being called more of a "range" that we all fall on, rather than a disability...theres a lot more systematizing people making kids who fall farther on the systematizing scale. Is Asperger
 

Lux

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I think the issue is that the main assumptions that a study would ride on just dont hold up. Autism naturally comes on from 0 to 2. The same time as vaccines. Its correlation, not causation.

Research on twins also holds that there are more instances in ASD in identical rather than paternal twins, which indicates a genetic, or at least partly genetic cause.

Here is a study on chromosome 17, it seems to be a mutation on this specific chromosome that many of the people on the AS have in common.

Advances in autism genetics: on the threshold of a new neurobiology
 

Synapse

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If this article has any credibility to it then makes me wonder.

Conclusions
This top secret meeting was held to discuss a study done by Dr. Thomas Verstraeten and his co-workers using Vaccine Safety Datalink data as a project collaboration between the CDC’s National Immunization Program (NIP) and four HMOs. The study examined the records of 110,000 children. Within the limits of the data, they did a very through study and found the following:

1. Exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccines at one month was associated significantly with the misery and unhappiness disorder that was dose related. That is, the higher the child’s exposure to thimerosal the higher the incidence of the disorder. This disorder is characterized by a baby that cries uncontrollably and is fretful more so than that see in normal babies.
2. Found a nearly significant increased risk of ADD with 12.5ug exposure at one month.
3. With exposure at 3 months, they found an increasing risk of neurodevelopmental disorders with increasing exposure to thimerosal. This was statistically significant. This included speech disorders.

No one disagreed that these findings were significant and troubling. Attempts by Congressman Weldon to force the CDC to release the data to an independent researcher, Dr. Mark Geier, a researcher with impeccable credentials and widely published in peer-reviewed journals, have failed repeatedly

There is no question that thimerosal plays a major role, but there are other factors that are also critical, including aluminum, fluoroaluminum complexes, and chronic immune activation of brain microglia. One property of both aluminum and mercury is microglial activation. With chronic microglial activation large concentrations of excitotoxins are released as well as neurotoxic cytokines. These have been shown to destroy synaptic connections, dendrites and cause abnormal pathway development in the developing brain as well as adult brain.

In essence, too many vaccines are being given to children during the brain’s most rapid growth period. Known toxic metals are beings used in the vaccines that interfere with brain metabolism, antioxidant enzymes, damage DNA and DNA repair enzymes and trigger excitotoxicity.

Besides there is always mycoplasma in vaccines for chronic diseases, whether any truth to it who knows. The vaccines themselves are fine, its whats in them that is a worry. I'd be reluctant to take vaccines voluntarily with just for anything just in case some of this is true. They do their job that's certain yet I question the logic behind some of the inclusions. Since money is a factor then I wouldn't put it past people to cut corners and use harmful substances as a possibility for the sake of cost reduction and such. Reactions mightn't happen when your young, but how would you know that the health problems you start getting when your old aren't related, you'd assume its an accumulation of everything else rather than the source that started the snowball.
 

Lux

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You know something else I wonder about is, do you think that there were always more people on the AS, but now that we have a name and characteristics that comprise it, we notice it more?

As in, people just used to shrug off others "odd" behavior, but if they had been children in this era they would have been diagnosed with ASD? Just a thought...
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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I think the issue is that the main assumptions that a study would ride on just dont hold up. Autism naturally comes on from 0 to 2. The same time as vaccines. Its correlation, not causation.



so you're admitting to being a conspiracy theorist. How else are we going to falsify your beliefs if you wont trust any information? :rofl1:



Ive done research for school surveying literature. I think its largely due to the increase in education and marking out like minded people for marriage. Let me explain. When two parents of highly systematizing nature mate, their child is of much higher likely hood to have a ASD. A lot of the hot spots for autism is around areas where really smart people are likely to be married.

Some ASDs like Aspergers are even now being called more of a "range" that we all fall on, rather than a disability...theres a lot more systematizing people making kids who fall farther on the systematizing scale. Is Asperger

So, you're saying smarter people are mating, and producing ASDs? Interesting proposition. Must be what happens when NTs mate. Who knew. :cheese: I still think my U/S theory is better.



Research on twins also holds that there are more instances in ASD in identical rather than paternal twins, which indicates a genetic, or at least partly genetic cause.

Here is a study on chromosome 17, it seems to be a mutation on this specific chromosome that many of the people on the AS have in common.

Advances in autism genetics: on the threshold of a new neurobiology

Women carrying twins get a ton of ultrasounds. A TON! And they start screening most women now in the first trimester, around 10 weeks if they are measuring larger than they should be. If there are twins, they do an u/s at every visit, at least, and that is a lot, because women carrying twins see the practitioner more frequently than women with a single baby.

Ultrasound guidelines are being established, but since it's regular and frequent use is relatively new, we really do not know what effects it can have. This from Wikipedia:

There are several studies that indicate the harmful side effects on animal fetuses associated with the use of sonography on pregnant mammals. A Yale study in 2006 suggested exposure to ultrasound affects fetal brain development in mice. A typical fetal scan, including evaluation for fetal malformations, typically takes 10–30 minutes.[10] The study showed that rodent brain cells failed to migrate to their proper positions and remained scattered in incorrect parts of the brain. This misplacement of brain cells during their development is linked to disorders ranging from "mental retardation and childhood epilepsy to developmental dyslexia, autism spectrum disorders and schizophrenia." However, this effect was only detectable after 30 minutes of continuous scanning. No link has yet been made between the test results on animals such as mice and the possible effects on humans. Although the possibility exists that biological effects on humans may be identified in the future, currently most doctors feel that based on available information the benefits to patients outweigh the risks.


And 30 min is really nothing when they are having fun looking at twins in office, and searching for twin gender, etc.
 
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