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  1. #61
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I remain undecided on the HPV vaccine for my daughter who is approaching the age when they recommend it. Her pediatrician is neutral on it. What do you know about it Q?
    The "biased" source(s):
    Well, a group of us had an intense discussion about this HPV vaccination program in Canada. One even works for the Public Health Agency of Canada as part of the vaccination program, while the rest of us, ranging from 2 doctors to us, the epidemiology crew (6 of us, w/ 2 of us whose focus are on cancer, 1 who is in public policy who had an axe to grind about the $ injected into this program), hashed out the possible pros and cons of this vaccination program. So, again, it's just over-dinner conversation...I'd suggest going to actual studies to get properly informed.

    A few really relevant studies were cited, and I can't for the life of me, remember what all those specific ones were. There's a few in the New England Journal of Medicine.

    Dunne EF, Unger ER, Sternberg M, McQuillan G, Swan DC, Patel SS, Markowitz LE.Prevalence of HPV infection among females in the United States.JAMA. 2007 Feb 28;297(8):813-9.

    Garland SM, Hernandez-Avila M, Wheeler CM, et al. Quadrivalent vaccine against human papillomavirus to prevent anogenital diseases. N Engl J Med 2007, 356, 1928-43.

    The FUTURE II Study Group. Quadrivalent vaccine against human papillomavirus to prevent high-grade cervical lesions. N Engl J Med 2007, 356, 1915-27.

    Sawaya GF and Smith-McCune K. HPV vaccination – more answers, more questions. New Engl J Med 2007, 356, 1991-3. (editorial)

    Haug CJ. Human papillomavirus vaccination – reason for caution. New Engl J Med 2008, 359, 861-2.

    Setting set - conclusions drawn -

    A few points of consideration:
    - there has been no trials focusing on the effectiveness of the vaccines for girls under 16, I believe.
    - the duration of immunity provided by the vaccines is unknown (it has not been out long enough to know long-term)
    - those girls that are currently getting vaccinated as part of the programs, are actually serving as part of the large-scale sample of subjects for prospective cohort studies of this vaccination program (nothing inherently wrong with that, as some people have to be the guinea pigs, the firsts)
    - Two types of vaccination: Gardasil and Cervarix
    - Gardasil: protects against high-risk (aka, said to be responsible for 70%
    of cervical cancer) HPV types, 16, 18 and, low-risk (e.g., genital warts)
    HPV types, 11, and 6.
    - Cervarix: protects against only the high-risk HPV types, 16 and 18.
    - there is well over 100 types of HPVs.....the vaccines target 4 (2 of the
    most common high risk ones).....
    - prevalence study (the above reference, JAMA, in 2007) found that the
    four types of HPV to be quite low, with the high-risk types (16, 18)
    making up around 2% of the cases of all female population in USA,
    between 12-59. Also, there's a decline in prevalence of HPV after a
    certain "high risk" age, for girls. So, the pretty low prevalence rates kinda
    calls into question the effectiveness of nationwide vaccination program,
    and given that, of the 2 high risk types of HPV, they're only implicated in
    70% of cervical cancers.
    - no long-terms effects have been studied; as mentioned earlier, the girls
    entering the program are serving as the subjects.
    - awareness of knowledge about sexual behaviours, and, evaluating the
    likelihood if whether one will be, or does belong, in the high risk groups,
    such as age, number of sexual partners, marital status, should help in
    making a more informed decision about one's personal need of the
    vaccine. One size does not fit all, in this case.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    You are missing the point. I never mentioned wakefield, for some reason people like to use him as a reference to prove a point. I am looking at a broader picture that encompasses the whole stream of illnesses that happen without unsatisfying reasons and answers. Perhaps my reasoning is false, it is in a format that can easily be dismissed and I focused on the parts on autism which is part of the puzzle imo.

    Instead of linking to quackwatch Ivy, who themselves are highly biased, try disproving what the sites I link from say, which is easy since Vernon is a mole yet Garth is a microbiologist. And that health site too, I knew that would be a scrunchie too.

    Koren DC/Barrett MD Trial
    Stephen Barrett is now delicensed (he voluntarily gave up his Pennsylvania medical license, the last of four medical licenses he once held, in the early 1990’s) and the Vice President of the NCAHF. He also operates at least 20 websites affiliated with his main site, Quackwatch.com. The website and its affiliate web sites are seemingly designed to spread deceitful, untruthful and malicious propaganda about chiropractic and other non-conventional health practices; similar to the way the CCHI did under the auspices of the AMA. NCAHF is also involved in similar activities.

    Realizing that the defamation lawsuit was just another of Barrett’s continued, conspiratorial tactics to destroy chiropractic, Dr. Koren decided that this time things would be different. In order to officially link Barrett to the original conspiracy revealed in Wilk v. AMA, he and Foundation for Health Choice cofounder and attorney Jim Turner, would have to get Barrett to court instead of settling like so many of his predecessors did. Jim Turner joined forces with health freedom trial attorney Carlos F. Negrete of San Juan Capistrano, California and attorney Christopher Reid of Allentown, Pennsylvania who all decided to take this precedent setting case to trial. This way, they could challenge Barrett and put his activities to the test before a jury of his own peers in his home town. The Barrett v. Koren trial took place between October 10th and October 13th 2005, and the case was thrown out by the judge before it went to the jury because Barrett had not provided sufficient evidence to prove his case. Barrett did, however, provide plenty of sufficient evidence to show that he was linked to the continued conspiracy against chiropractic.
    This goes for you too Ajblaise instead of linking to conspiracy sites try to discredit Dr Garth Nicolson and yeah I know Dr Vernon Coleman is a odd ball fellow that probably shouldn't be taken too seriously.

    You should also include this excellent resource AJ - Anti-vaccine Myths Exposed
    To debunk anti stuff, that's a pretty good site to read.
    A this site too - Vaccines and Modern Medicine
    To promote anti stuff, had some interesting things. to read.

    Balance for pro and anti, is uncertain what to think some days but don't mind looking out of curiosity. There is definitely hype and I'm just adding to the discussion.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    Molecular Biology Research
    At the Institute for Molecular Medicine we have identified systemic infections, such as those produced by Mycoplasma species, Chlamydia pneumoniae and Human Herpes Virus-6 (HHV-6), in a high percentage of ASD patients, and these infections are likely to be important in determining the treatment strategies for many ASD patients. These infections can penetrate the CNS and are associated with other neurological diseases. In addition, heavy metal contamination, chemical and environmental exposures also appear to be important in ASD.

    Since these infections can cause neurological signs and symptoms, they may be important in ASD. Previously we found that children of Mycoplasma-positive Gulf War veterans were over 18-times more likely to come down with Mycoplasma fermentans than the general population and high rates of ASD diagnoses were found in their children. In addition, examination of a group of autism patients from civilian families revealed that there was a high incidence of mycoplasmal infections, including M. fermentans, M. pneumoniae and M. hominis as well as co-infections with C. pneumoniae or HHV-6, suggesting that chronic infections are common in ASD patients and should be effectively treated.
    How Vaccinations Work
    Vaccine antigens are designed to be "unprovocative" or "indigestible" for the cellular immune system (Th1) and highly stimulating for the antibody-mediated humoral immune system (Th2).

    Perhaps it is not difficult to see then why the repeated use of vaccinations would tend to shift the functional balance of the immune system toward the antibody-producing side (Th2) and away from the acute inflammatory discharging side (the cell-mediated side or Th1). This has been confirmed by observation especially in the case of Gulf War Illness: most vaccinations cause a shift in immune function from the Th1 side (acute inflammatory discharging response) to the Th2 side (chronic auto-immune or allergic response). 6

    The outcome of this line of thought is that, contrary to previous belief, vaccinations do not strengthen or "boost" the whole immune system. Instead vaccinations overstimulate the "tasting and remembering" function of the antibody-mediated branch of the immune system (Th2) which simultaneously suppresses the cellular immune system (Th1) thus "preventing" the disease in question.

    What in reality is prevented is not the disease but the ability of our cellular immune system to manifest, to respond to and to overcome the disease!

    There is no system of the human being, from mind to muscles to immune system, which gets stronger through avoiding challenges, but only through overcoming challenges. The wise use of vaccinations would be to use them selectively, and not on a mass scale. In order for vaccinations to be helpful and not harmful, we must know beforehand in each individual to be vaccinated whether the Th1 function or the Th2 function of the immune system predominates.

    In individuals in whom the Th1 function predominates, causing many acute inflammations because the cellular immune system is overreactive, a vaccination could have a balancing effect on the immune system and be helpful for that individual.

    In individuals in whom the Th2 function predominates, causing few acute inflammations but rather the tendency to chronic allergic or autoimmune inflammations, a vaccination would cause the Th2 function to predominate even more, aggravating the imbalance of the immune system and harming the health of that individual. This is what happened in Gulf War Illness.

    The current use of vaccinations in medicine today is essentially a "shotgun" approach which ignores differences among individuals. In such an approach some individuals may be helped and others may be harmed.
    What about the retrovirus XMRV which can lie dormant in people, until it is "turned on or off" by other factors, such as stress hormones like cortisol, or in response to the presence of inflammatory "cytokines," protein molecules secreted by immune cells to help regulate the immune system.

    and
    Autoimmune Conditions
    Exposure to toxins wears out the immune system, and thus may cause Th-2 cell overactivation. In addition to the vast number of toxins in our food, water and environment, toxins come from poor digestion, leaky gut syndrome (usually caused by candida), toxins in drugs and medicine like mercury in vaccines, and mycoplasma bacteria, fungi that produce mycotoxins, and other infectious pathogens that excrete toxins as a byproduct of their metabolism. This can get pretty insidious.

    Heavy Metal Toxicity, excessive levels of heavy metals may also be common in autoimmune diseases. One doctor who tested all his patients found that over 80% of them with an autoimmune disease had excessive mercury levels. They are difficult to get rid of, and are especially harmful as they disrupt cell metabolism. Heavy metals slowly collect in your body, irritate cells and literally can wipe out the immune system.

    Michael Biamonte, at his health clinic, tested the mercury levels in his patients with various illnesses. He found that 84% of his clients with candida had elevated mercury levels, and that they were 60% higher than normal. The exact same numbers held for clients with parasites. 86% of clients with Epstein Barr Virus had mercury levels elevated by 68%. For those with chemical sensitivities 85% were 70% elevated and found similar numbers for autoimmune diseasess. Most other conditions were much lower.

    Getting rid of mercury is confounded by the bile loop. The liver picks up mercury from the bloodstream where cells have put it to be detoxified. However, rather than getting eliminated something else happens. The liver puts it into the bile in the intestines. Unfortunately, this mercury is rapidly absorbed once again into the blood stream with other fluids. So instead of the liver being able to get rid of the mercury it detoxifies, the mercury gets routed back into the body. This is also what happens with the biotoxins produced by micro-organisms in the body. They continually get routed back into the blood from the bile.

    Perhaps the most devastating are the pituitary, thyroid, hypocampus and adrenal gland methyl mercury accumulations. These disruptions help bring on fatigue, mind fog, short term memory loss, concentration problems, and headaches. People can lose their sense of balance. Women can develop early menopause and endodemitriosis from loss of proper hormone regulation.

    If the mercury accumulation is in the immune system, the immune system can suffer severe damage. If the brain is the focus, all sorts of mental disorders can occur. If it happens in the liver or kidneys, acute diseases can attack those organs. In muscles, pain. In joints, arthritis.
    This is probably a bit far fetched, that's me trying to stir.

    Reading misinformation and non credible sources is easy, I have done so and presented them too. You are more right than I am when taking into account the responsibility of your children and health and the responsibility of the communities health in general. To be irresponsible and to promote illness through negligence is wrong and yeah vaccinate when needed.

    Yet I disagree with anti and I disagree with pro approaches since both appear to be narrow definitions of what is proper and what isn't, either way I think things that have consistent patterns are related to each other, its complicated.

  4. #64
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I linked to Quackwatch because of the simple, clear, accurate explanations of how the immune system works. I figured the rest of the links I gave would provide balance on the research side.

    Interesting how the source you cite there, and everything else I can find online about the supposedly "busted" Quackwatch guy, is on clearly biased CAM sites.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  5. #65
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Synapse, you've been pretty upfront that you're basically just trolling this thread. So I see no point in responding in earnest when you're just going to throw back a bunch of stuff written by people wearing tinfoil hats.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #66
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Synapse, you've been pretty upfront that you're basically just trolling this thread. So I see no point in responding in earnest when you're just going to throw back a bunch of stuff written by people wearing tinfoil hats.
    Nah nothing like that, the system has flaws, neither side is optimal. I contradict myself out of frustration, wanting to challenge sacred cows, in general just unsure of a lot of things.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    Thanks everyone for the advice, material and points of view. I can't say categorically right now whether or not I think all vaccines are good or bad, but what you've all said has given me plenty of food for thought.

    I think the best way to go is to investigate one vaccine at a time because there are doctors who think that certain ones are good and other ones unnecessary or harmful. So I am putting together a fact sheet for myself of info I find about each vaccine my baby has already had and future ones she is scheduled for.

    So far, I've started with Prevenar (or Prevnar as it's called in the US), widely used around the world, compulsory in some places. And it's already not looking great. It is against pneumococcus. Apparently a common pathogen causing various diseases, e.g. pneumonia and ear infections. It hasn't been tested in relation to cancer or infertility. Prevnar has violated rules of internationally accepted methods of reporting clinical trials by publishing the results when they were incomplete. For example, regarding pneumonia there was no information at all. The control group for the study did not receive a placebo, but another meningitis vaccine. In the trial that was the only foundation to vaccinate every newborn in the United States, Prevnar had four times more seizures, four times more gastritis than the control group, significantly more developed asthma and one death in the Prevnar group. There have also been lawsuits against the manufacturer by two employees, one of them is the one mentioned below in a news article I found (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0605/S00196.htm):

    For instance, Wyeth failed to reveal that in 2003, FDA inspectors found so many quality-control failings at the Prevnar packaging plant in Pearl River, NY, that production was shutdown at the site.
    Among the many problems listed in FDA reports, inspectors described dirty work areas, sloppy operating procedures, contamination, improper environmental monitoring and insects in a hallway outside the room where vials were filled with the vaccine. Wyeth's own internal investigations were also found to be inadequate. "Manufacturing investigation reports are not always completed in a timely manner," the FDA inspectors wrote in reviewing Wyeth's compliance in correcting previously cited problems. "Further," they said, "there is a lack of evidence that product impact is addressed in a timely manner and that all batches/processes are fully investigated."
    In one FDA report alone, inspectors identified 59 problems. In 2001 and 2002, Livingston says he repeatedly reported the violations to the managing director at the plant, an outside auditor, and a quality council of managers and nothing was done to correct the problems.
    Livingston says he was also concerned about the dangerous working conditions for employees. "I had many manufacturing technicians from 2000-2002 tell me," he said, "they did not want to work in the Prevnar manufacturing area for fear of the chemicals used in the production process, including cyanide."
    "Sodium cyanide is a dangerous chemical," he says, "mix it with water and you get hydrogen cyanide, the gas of choice used in the Holocaust."
    Sodium cyanide is used in the Prevnar manufacturing process, but trace amounts remain in the vaccine itself, according to Livingston.
    There are in fact, he says, many toxic substances in vaccines. "Mercury, lead, aluminum, cyanide, it's not a pretty picture," Livingston warns, "for a child's immune system, for unsuspecting parents and caregivers, who are never told about the presence of these chemicals, and for employees who have to keep their mouths shut or face losing employment," he adds.
    A batch of this vaccine was banned in the Netherlands after 3 babies died very close in time to one another after having it. Apparently it's normal for 5 to 10 babies to die a year after being vaccinated and this is not considered too bad () but these three happened too close to each other. I also read a story about a batch being recalled because the substance put in the batch was "not for commercial use".

    And this is one vaccine my baby got, at the same time as about 7 others, all mixed

    My only comfort is that I will not be completing the programme so perhaps with time it will be flushed out of her system. One family I read about managed to reverse their son's autism with biomedical treatment after it was triggered after he was vaccinated. Happily, he is officially not autistic anymore.
    the shoheen ho of the wind of the west and the lulla lo of the soft sea billow - Alfred Graves

  8. #68
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Conspiracy theory

    The thing is, while there are some nutty conspiracy theorists out there, what makes them conspiracy is just their own particular spin on topics that everyone discusses. For example, whether or not some people think the New World Order is actively trying to poison people to depopulate the planet, being anti-Monsanto, anti-GM foods and anti-the demise of independent small and medium-sized farms doesn't deserve the label of “conspiracy theory”. That's too simple.

    When I first had my baby vaccinated, the only thing I'd heard about the anti-vaccine argument was associated in my mind too with conspiracy theory and people who think the Queen of England is a reptile. So I didn't take the anti-vaccine viewpoint seriously, especially since vaccines are pushed very strongly here in Germany by the state as necessary. The baby booklet I got from my paediatrician for example has a really strong heading in the vaccine section “Vaccinations – No Alternative to Safety”.

    I'm now of the opinion that that is misleading at best, if not coercive, and I am very angry about it. There are alternatives. You don't have to take all the ones they push on you and at the time they tell you. The same booklet implies that any parent who has doubts about vaccines has no understanding of how diseases work. It's very patronising. The same booklet explains the necessity of returning for further shots by saying that the body has to “practice”. To “practice”? That's the sort of explanation you give a five year old.

    I'm not saying that all vaccines are bad. I have no idea, I'm still researching. But I definitely think that people are being deliberately misinformed as to the extent of their choice and the full range of pros/cons and risks involved. The same booklet above highlights in a box that the side effects of vaccines are "low". Well, that's just not true about all the potential side effects. The same booklet talks in more detail about the pros and cons of using a pacifier than it does about injecting artificially spliced bacteria into the bloodstream.
    the shoheen ho of the wind of the west and the lulla lo of the soft sea billow - Alfred Graves

  9. #69
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    The issue for me is not really to vccinate or not, it's to vaccinate in single shots or multiple....

    It's the multiple vaccines in 1 shot that seem to be the most dangerous, the single shot per illness seems to be OK.

    Vaccines have always been controvertial since they were invented... they actualy apply the principal of homeopathy - a little bit of something is curative... however I'm none to convinced homeopathy works.... Vaccines however I do think work, but I wouldn't innoculate a child wiht MMR - I may do them as M then M then R. I dont' know what the controversy is about, if in doubt get three shots.... no biggie

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