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  1. #51
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    A.g.a, part of the reason your children don't need the vaccines is that the rest of us get them. They are riding on herd immunity. But because vaccination rates are declining, some of the diseases are starting to return. We may not always have the luxury of thinking of this theoretically.
    I agree that is the case. But even if MMR illnesses were more prevalent in my region, I still would not get the MMR vaccine. Same goes with Hib, Hep B, Some may call that child abuse, but I do not feel that having some childhood diseases, like chickenpox, would be that detrimental to my children. And I feel like in our particular case, their environment is condusive to limited exposure, and quick healing. The government looks at things form a public health standpoint, which is necessary. But my kids are not a number to me, and I am capable of determining necessary and unnecessary vaccinations. We are not part of the herd, although I understand most are.

    List I would not do even if the disease was more prevalent in my area:

    Hep B
    Rotavirus
    Pertussis
    Pneumococcal
    Flu
    Varicella
    Hep A
    Meningococcal


    A huge consideration is whether kids are in daycare centers and schools. Mine are not. There are a bunch of us.
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  2. #52
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    There is a huge outbreak of mumps in the Hasidic part of my neighborhood right now, that is spreading to the rest of the neighborhood like wildfire since vaccinations are on the decrease ever since the autism scare. It just looks so painful, these kids, I feel bad for them... I mean, it's not like chicken pox.

    I saw a pregnant woman with it and felt so bad for her.

  3. #53
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Oh, and the outbreak started in a school where all the boys had already had the vaccine...

  4. #54
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Hope your kids don't accidentally expose a pregnant woman to rubella then. My kids aren't a number to me either, but we are part of a community. We're not off the grid homesteaders. Even then, if you ever go out in public, you're part of the herd.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
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  5. #55
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Ivy, thank you for the excellent points you brought up regarding the misinformation about autism spectrum disorder (from mercury poisoning, to MMR vaccination, to blah blah blah). It reminds me of Jenny McCarthy's ridiculous statement of how she CURED HER SON OF AUTISM.

    One big recent issue surrounding vaccinations was due to the possible linkage between Thiomersal (a preservative for vaccines) and development of autistic-like symptoms. This has been negated as a linkage of causation becauase ASD is not a mitochondrial disorder, hence, there is no logic of why thiomersal would be an issue.

    Also, like Lux said, the rate of increase in diagnosis is because today, unlike 50 years ago, there is hella lot more awareness about the disorder, as well as, more refined diagnosing techniques.

    Finally, another excellent point by Ivy, is the "herd immunity". Those who are opting out of vaccinations for their children, of course, it is their right to do so, but, they are relying implicitly on the rest of the herd to be healthy, hence, x, y, z disease is not a likely concern for them.

    If everyone stopped getting the vaccines, then, the concern for x, y, z disease as a real possibility in a given population increases exponentially and significantly (p=0.05), given the likelihood of exposures, rate of cross-infection, incubation period, success rate of treatment being inverse (lower) than rate of cross-infection & incubation (containment of disease). A very real issue is also the general population's comparatively weak immune system, than say, someone in West Africa. Because we're too "clean".

    I am quite skeptic of those who say they get "informed" about vaccines and to what degree their knowledge acquisition is from valid sources versus hype.

    For example, the program for the HPV vaccination in Canada for young girls, given what I know of it so far, wouldn't recommend.

    Not all vaccinations = good. It's about the process of getting informed, and, as a reaction to the hype FOR vaccination, not falling into the trap of going to the opposite spectrum, by falling into the hype AGAINST vaccination.

  6. #56
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Our kids were vaccinated. When you are poor-ass medicaid recipients you jump through the hoops and keep your head down, you know? If I was doing it again now with private insurance, I'd probably do more homework on the subject. OTOH, most of the diseases we are vaccinated against are pretty horrible and I'd really not want my kids to get them, or like Ivy says, for them to make a wide-scale comeback.

    We discovered when I was pregnant with my fourth child that my immunity to rubella had faded and I was lucky to live in a society where I wasn't exposed to it and my child born dead or deformed. I feel like I have kind of a duty to contribute to that kind of society by me and my kids not going around being Typhoid Marys.

    As far as the autism thing goes, my husband's maternal side pretty much all acts autistic, for generations back from what I can tell. If my husband was in elementary school now, I'd bet the farm they'd consider him 'on the spectrum' and it's no big surprise that our sons are on it, too. They are high functioning, so I don't consider it a big deal, but I do kinda feel for 'normal' people who get some kind of recessive autism surprise and I feel even more sorry for AS kids that get stuck with parents that freak out about them not being normal.
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  7. #57
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    Just read this one. Great article.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Ivy, thank you for the excellent points you brought up regarding the misinformation about autism spectrum disorder (from mercury poisoning, to MMR vaccination, to blah blah blah). It reminds me of Jenny McCarthy's ridiculous statement of how she CURED HER SON OF AUTISM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    One big issue surrounding vaccinations was due to the possible linkage between Thiomersal (a preservative for vaccines) and development of autistic-like symptoms. This has been negated as a linkage of causation becauase ASD is not a mitochondrial disorder, hence, there is no logic of why thiomersal would be an issue.

    Also, like Lux said, the rate of increase in diagnosis is because today, unlike 50 years ago, there is hella lot more awareness about the disorder, as well as, more refined diagnosing techniques.

    Finally, another excellent point by Ivy, is the "herd immunity". Those who are opting out of vaccinations for their children, of course, it is their right to do so, but, they are relying implicitly on the rest of the herd to be healthy, hence, x, y, z disease is not a likely concern for them.

    If everyone stopped getting the vaccines, then, the concern for x, y, z disease as a real possibility in a given population increases exponentially and significantly (p=0.05), given the likelihood of exposures, rate of cross-infection, incubation period, success rate of treatment being inversely higher than rate of cross-infection & incubation (containment of disease). A very real issue is also the general population's comparatively weak immune system, than say, someone in West Africa. Because we're too "clean".

    I am quite skeptic of those who say they get "informed" about vaccines and to what degree their knowledge acquisition is from valid sources versus hype.
    Very well said. I remain undecided on the HPV vaccine for my daughter who is approaching the age when they recommend it. Her pediatrician is neutral on it. What do you know about it Q?
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  8. #58
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Bit of a funny Cracked.com article that touches on the issue. A good quote:

    When it comes to matters of opinion or personal beliefs, it is absolutely the duty of the news media to report both sides (and any extra sides there may be, on those rare odd occasions when there are somehow more than two). It doesn't matter which one they agree with, they need to acknowledge the fact that some people think gay marriage is a right and others think the gays are forming a unicorn army that will kill us all.

    When it comes to matters of fact, however, they absolutely do not have that duty. Particularly when it comes to technical or scientific matters where it takes somebody with training to speak knowledgably on the subject.

    If we're talking about if, say, vaccines cause autism, we need to hear from scientists. That's a scientific issue. We do not need to hear from Jenny McCarthy or Jim fucking Carrey, in the name of giving "both sides." Jim and Jenny don't get a side. They have no background in the subject, and it's one that requires fucking background.

    Sure, they can talk about poisonous vaccines to Oprah or whoever is sitting next to them at the Lakers game all they want. They have freedom of speech. That freedom does not guarantee them a seat on a panel of experts.
    And this

    Fire Marshal Bill discusses vaccines and autism on The Huffington Post : Respectful Insolence


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  9. #59
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    And furthermore:

    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  10. #60
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Interesting thread. I wouldn't question most basic vaccinations given to children including polio, small pox, meningitis...these have been around for decades and have been shown to help eradicate the diseases in many communities. That's evidence enough. I'd rather my child didn't get any of these diseases.

    Most vaccines go through years of testing and many thousands of trial cases before they're put out in the market. Many of these vaccinations are also provide free by governments in and to the developing world and/or by the World Health organization since they're considered that important. Different strategies to encourage pharma companies to develop better vaccines are discussed here:
    Push and Pull : The New Yorker

    I'd agree with the general sentiment about being vigilant and doing research on suggested vaccinations (Babylon Candle, Q and Ivy, your points on reliable sources are well taken). Personally, I don't know about the general flu vaccine that's doled out every year since there are so many strains out there and people with the vaccine still seem to be able to get another strain.

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