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  1. #31
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    All sources of information are not equally valid and reliable. FYI, I'm not saying CNN is valid or reliable. But I've never seen an anti-vaccine organization that didn't make at least serious errors in logic, at worst complete fabrications.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  2. #32
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    Your post had an air of, "dont trust the MAN and HIS newspapers! they are all bought by the corporations!!!"

    Generally, scientific beliefs need to be falsifiable. Thats what I meant. You can have a belief/position that is 100% falsifiable that is actually true. Its more about how you formulate the hypothesis. The comment about the mainstream media made me think about the conspiracy theorists who are basically unfalsifiable, because any contradicting information they chalk up to being "part of the conspiracy".

    FYI, I actually am against modern medicine when it comes to diet for example. I eat strictly paleo/ketogenic/high protein/high fat. I do not think that modern humans were designed to eat hundreds of grams of carbohydrates a day.


    Scientific studies, however, aren't able to take into account future sequelie. And there is a trend in this country, with medicine, and technological advances in medicine, to leap before you look..... The scientific method falls short when it comes to new technology (including vaccines) because it takes into account current results only. And things are approved before many years, enough years, have elapsed to really get an idea about fallout; driven by many things, including money and overzealous idealism. X-rays/hormone replacement therapy and breast cancer/circumcision/ are just a few examples of this.

    That some thoughtful consumers are cognizant of this is not paranoia. It's common sense and intellectual savvy!
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  3. #33
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I do find the whole "money-grubbing vaccine makers" thing to be a bit of a red herring. The pharmaceutical companies are not unbiased at all, it's true. However, vaccines are by and large not their moneymakers. They're given a few times in a person's lifetime, and many of them are given to countries that can't pay for them. The drugs people take every day for a lifetime are the moneymakers for the pharmaceutical companies.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  4. #34
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Wouldn't it be nice if there was a universal vaccine? I don't think there could be, because it would be a breach in the uncontrollable flow of nature and life..but still, the speculation is neat!
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  5. #35
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I do find the whole "money-grubbing vaccine makers" thing to be a bit of a red herring. The pharmaceutical companies are not unbiased at all, it's true. However, vaccines are by and large not their moneymakers. They're given a few times in a person's lifetime, and many of them are given to countries that can't pay for them. The drugs people take every day for a lifetime are the moneymakers for the pharmaceutical companies.
    I'm not sure if you were speaking to me or not, but, yeah, I'm sure there are a lot of other intricate reasons why we jump in with technological advances before we have tested or studied them enough. Money is just but one of the reasons, and in the case of vaccines, might indeed be one of the lesser reasons. That wasn't really the point I was trying to make.

    My point was that physicians and scientists get a bit caught up in playing God and, oftentimes, end up causing more problems than they solve; or, at the very least, don't give the whole spiel about their inventions while making them universal in their applications.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  6. #36
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Do you really think vaccines "cause more problems than they solve"? I think the fact that kids don't typically die of these diseases anymore (or they didn't, back when everybody actually vaccinated for them--they're making a comeback now. Thanks a lot Wakefield!) is a pretty huge solution. I have not seen evidence that vaccines cause any problem even approaching the magnitude of childhood diseases like polio or even measles. They are not without risk- but nobody ever said that they were. The risks (IMO) have been vastly overstated by people who don't really understand the way they work.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  7. #37
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    hahaha today my brother had one of those discussions.
    He said do I know what amino acids are, I said yes.
    Then explain it to me.
    I can't, I have memory problems.
    He said then you forgot.
    I said, but I wrote about it last week.
    Then explain it to me.
    ...
    Whats the colour of a clear sky.
    ...
    Then he starts explaining to me what amino acids are and that I'm eating a high protean diet without enough vegetables and fruit. Nvm I eat apples daily and prepare salad on my off days and eat fruit from the staff fruit basket. hahaha.

    Then he goes we are all sick, I said duh. Do you know your sickness. He goes yeah, his slow platelets are doing something to his body due too poor dna structure and he doesn't know why. He says maybe he got poisoned or passed on through genetics and doesn't remember where from.
    If I said maybe its from vaccines he'd say I'm nuts, he leaves angry and sms's me he's given up on my attitude. The one where I have a boundary and refuse to be a door mat and help him out with stuff.

    Anyway a confused Dr who has an identity crisis and is a bit outspoken, wrote the following. I'm reluctant to ponder his credibility but I found it interesting nonetheless.

    Here are ten basic facts about vaccination that most people don't know but should know:

    1. Vaccines cause brain damage - and can kill. Since the 1970s the British Government has very quietly handed out tens of thousands of pounds to parents of children suffering from brain damage caused by vaccines. If you inject potentially toxic substances into small children you will get problems. The Government secretly admits this.

    2. The number of vaccines is rising rapidly. American children now receive around 30 vaccinations before they go to school. Today there are vaccines against all sorts of non-deadly diseases such as mumps and measles which were traditionally regarded as inconvenient. When a vaccine is introduced a disease stops being a minor childhood disease and officially becomes a serious killer. The authorities issue scare warnings in order to frighten people into having the jab. The number of children diagnosed as suffering from autism has rocketed just as the number of children being vaccinated has risen. This isn't just true of the UK, its true of all countries where children are vaccinated. Autism is a disorder which involves brain damage. And remember no 1 on my list of facts: vaccines cause brain damage. Now, here's the killer fact: when a research project was set up to establish a link between vaccination and autism, drug companies applied to a court for an injunction to stop the research. Now, why would they do that? And vaccines don't seem to cause only autism. It now seems possible that vaccinations may cause diseases such as arthritis, eczema and irritable bowel syndrome - because of their interfering with the immune system. It's difficult to get research done on these because most research is paid for by drug companies and the government and neither want to pay for this type of research.

    3. Doctors and drug companies make large amounts of money from vaccines. GPs get bonuses if they can force enough of their patients to have vaccinations. It is not unknown for doctors to throw patients off their list because they won't accept vaccinations - because this affects the GP's earnings.

    4. No one knows which vaccines interact badly. No one knows what effect all these vaccines have on the immune system. No one knows how safe they are. They don't know because no one has ever tried to find out. What is beyond dispute is that vaccines can and do kill people. One anti-flu vaccine which was given to over a million Americans contained a monkey virus which causes cancer.

    5. Many of the diseases which we are told have been extinct by vaccines were disappearing or controlled long before the vaccines were introduced. For example, the number of deaths from polio fell before the first polio vaccination was introduced. Look at the figures and you'll see that the incidence of polio went up after the vaccine was introduced. In Tennessee the number of children who got polio before vaccination was introduced was 119. The year after vaccination was introduced it was 386. Traditionally, deaths from whooping cough occur among very young babies - who are too young to have the vaccine anyway.

    6. Vaccines are developed using material taken from animals. Tissues include brain tissue from rabbits, kidney tissue from dogs and monkeys, blood from pigs, protein from hens eggs. This can be dangerous because cell cultures may be and sometimes are contaminated. During the 1990s children received vaccinations prepared using material which could have been infected with BSE. The British Government was warned of the hazard. We won't know whether this is serious or not for another decade. Some vaccines are made with aborted human foetal tissue. No one knows what diseases might be in that tissue.

    7. Many vaccines contain thimerosal which contains mercury. Mercury is one of the most toxic substances known to man. The World Health Organisation says there is no safe level for mercury in the human body.

    8. Between 20% and 50% of people who are vaccinated don't get a resistance to the disease against which they have been immunised. So they are put at risk to no benefit.

    9. Epidemics of foot and mouth disease always start in countries where vaccination against foot and mouth is compulsory. The evidence suggests that the rabies vaccine is keeping rabies alive.

    10. Vaccines are now compulsory in some countries - eg America. This week I received an e-mail from the Czech republic asking for permission to translate material on vaccines from my website - where incidentally all the information is free and there are no ads - because, I'm told, vaccination is now compulsory there and there is no anti-vaccination material available. Governments are enthusiastic about vaccines because they believe that vaccinations help stop the spread of diseases in a community and therefore save money. When kids have measles their mums stay off work. That costs the economy money. Vaccines are given to minimise disruption and to save money. If your child is vaccinated then you are allowing the government to use your child to protect the economy by reducing the incidence of disease in the community. Child A is vaccinated to stop child B or C getting the disease and to stop the parents of B or C having time off work. The authorities are now even talking of giving the rubella vaccine to young boys to help cut the incidence of that disease among pregnant women.
    ***
    Remember, if these facts weren't true I would either be sued or struck off the medical register. Remember, too, that over the last 40 years I've made a lot of enemies who would be only too happy to report me - and, indeed, who do so frequently in vain attempts to stop me telling the truth. And remember that I have no vested interests. I don't represent anyone. If I thought vaccines were marvellous I would say so and attack the people trying to oppose their use. My only interest is the truth. My concern is that I believe that the amount of illness and the number of deaths caused by vaccinations far exceeds the amount of illness and the number of deaths which vaccinations might prevent. The information on my website is all available free of charge and I don't accept advertisements or sponsors for any of my books.
    ***
    What to do if you or your child is having a vaccination:

    1. If your doctor wants to vaccinate you, ask him to confirm in writing that the vaccine is both essential and safe and that the person having the vaccination is healthy enough to receive it. And get the doctor to tell you the batch number of the vaccine. You will probably notice his enthusiasm disappear.

    2. If you do have a vaccination keep the name of the doctor, the date and time and batch number safely. Lawsuits against doctors, drug companies and the government usually fail because people don't have this information.

    3. I believe that if children scream or show unusual signs after a vaccination then there is a real chance that they will develop autism. Sadly, its too late to do anything about it then. But videotape children before and after vaccination and you will be better placed to sue for damages.
    And this.

    Autism Mimics The Exact Same Symptoms As Mercury Poisoning!

    The characteristics of autism and mercury poisoning, derived from a review of medical literature, have been found, upon comparison, to be strikingly similar. The characteristics of both disorders are summarized in the following table and fully elucidated in the body of this document. The parallels between the two diseases are so close that it would be unreasonable to assume that the similarities occur by chance.

    What do you think. I suppose the site is promoting their own stuff yet the comparison between the two is interesting if its without bias. Maybe vaccines don't cause autism disorders and I'm looking into it too much as usual. Is any of the symptoms true, I mean the table in that link?

    I know that vaccines are needed to prevent awful illnesses but I do wonder sometimes the wisdom in adding new ones, wouldn't it overload the brain.

  8. #38
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Can we please put that old chestnut to rest once and for all? Autism isn't a disease, and vaccines don't cause it. It is a fundamental difference in the way the brain is wired, and vaccines do not rewire the brain. Autism is not a death sentence or a tragedy. Panicked parents who want to DO SOMETHING!!!!! and quacks who want to sell them "alternative remedies" (which are tested a lot less diligently than vaccines, if at all) are pushing this agenda. The mindset that can frown on a vaccine that comes with low risk (not NO risk, nobody has ever made that claim) but then happily accept the far more risky treatment of chelation, or even hormonal treatments used to chemically castrate sex offenders, is not a scientifically sound mindset.

    Misconceptions about Immunization

    Do Children Get Too Many Immunizations? The Answer is No.

    Dr. Paul Offit: Debunking the Vaccine-Autism Link - Newsweek.com

    Why Paul Offit Isn't Flexible on Vaccines - On Medicine (usnews.com)
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  9. #39
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    and quacks who want to sell them "alternative remedies" (which are tested a lot less diligently than vaccines, if at all) are pushing this agenda.
    The idea of "alternative remedies" sounds interesting, but yeah, the people who pitch that stuff can be scum bags.

    Kevin Trudeau, maybe the most popular "guru" of this kind, is about to go to jail for harassing a judge. The FTC has been after him for misleading advertising on his Natural Cures books.

  10. #40
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Lots of valid treatments start out as alternative treatments, but the field is polluted with quacks. Because they are unregulated as long as the producers put the Quack Miranda Warning on there somewhere:

    Quote Originally Posted by Quack Miranda Warning
    These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

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