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  1. #21
    Kraken down on piracy Lux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Women carrying twins get a ton of ultrasounds. A TON! And they start screening most women now in the first trimester, around 10 weeks if they are measuring larger than they should be. If there are twins, they do an u/s at every visit, at least, and that is a lot, because women carrying twins see the practitioner more frequently than women with a single baby.

    And 30 min is really nothing when they are having fun looking at twins in office, and searching for twin gender, etc.
    That is a very good point. I was weary of ultrasounds and only had one with my son. Who knows what causes the mutation, if indeed it is a mutation at all. Honestly as you know, no one knows what it is.

    But, if that were the case why would identical twins over fraternal twins have more instances in the disorder? It should be on a similar scale if it is the radiation from the ultrasound machine causing harm on a genetic level.
    "It is not length of life, but depth of life." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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  2. #22
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lux View Post
    That is a very good point. I was weary of ultrasounds and only had one with my son. Who knows what causes the mutation, if indeed it is a mutation at all. Honestly as you know, no one knows what it is.

    But, if that were the case why would identical twins over fraternal twins have more instances in the disorder? It should be on a similar scale if it is the radiation from the ultrasound machine causing harm on a genetic level.
    Yes, you are right. I found this:

    Two studies, one in the United States (done by David Greenberg, a geneticist at Columbia University in New York) and other in Britain (done by Christopher Gillberg of St George's Hospital Medical School in London), found a higher rate of autism among twins. The rate of autism in identical twins was 12 – 14 times that of the general population, and the rate of autism in fraternal twins was about 4 times higher than the general population. Another study presented at a conference in Boston in 2005 postulated that birth month greatly affects the chances of twins suffering from autism with twins born in January having an 80% higher chance of developing the disorder than twins born in December.

    While this information may seem scary at first, it's important to note two things: most of these studies relied on small samples groups, which may not provide the most reliable information. Also, the Columbia study limited itself to twins with siblings with autism, which has been identified as a risk factor for developing the disorder, and may have skewed the results. Finally, most twins will not suffer from autistic disorders, and even if one twin does develop autism, there is no guarantee that the other will develop it as well (even amongst identical twins). One mother of twins kept a daily diary on her fraternal twins' development; through this diary, one can see signs of autism in one of the twins dating from six months of age. Now twelve years old, one twin is autistic, and the other is unaffected. However, the mother's documentation of the twins development opened the eyes of researchers and parents as to the pervasiveness of this disorder, and the possibility that it can be identified much earlier than previously thought.

    For years, scientists, parents, and doctors have debated the causes of autism. At first, twin studies seemed to point to a genetic cause for the disease; however, the increased risk amongst fraternal twins (though not as high as that of identicals) seems to indicate that perhaps something about being a twin could also be a factor. This means that environmental factors in the womb, placental development, or even the experience of being raised with a same-age sibling could have some triggering effect for autism.

    Some authorities estimate that the incidence of autistic disorders has increased over 172% since 1990. Others argue that the incidence of autism has remained static, but our ability to identify and assist autistic children has improved. For more information on the studies cited in this article, and to access information on having twins assessed for autism, see the links below:
    Excess of Twins among Affected Sibling Pairs with Autism: Implications for the Etiology of Autism David A. Greenberg, Susan E. Hodge, Janice Sowinski, and Doug Nicoll from The American Journal of Human Genetics
    I think that statistic is so high that it points to more of an acute phenomenon since 1990, than a completely genetic component. I bet if I researched U/S stats, I'd find that U/S took off around that time period. (I know anecdotally it did, but don't feel like finding stats)

    But there is the hint of identical twins having more probs. Perhaps, as with vaccines, there is a genetic predisposition to ASD, and U/S exposure, as vaccine exposure, promotes and causes expression of these disorders, that might otherwise go undetected.
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  3. #23
    Kraken down on piracy Lux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I think that statistic is so high that it points to more of an acute phenomenon since 1990, than a completely genetic component. I bet if I researched U/S stats, I'd find that U/S took off around that time period. (I know anecdotally it did, but don't feel like finding stats)

    But there is the hint of identical twins having more probs. Perhaps, as with vaccines, there is a genetic predisposition to ASD, and U/S exposure, as vaccine exposure, promotes and causes expression of these disorders, that might otherwise go undetected.
    Thanks for the info. The subject is so interesting.

    I think that genetic predisposition mixed with environment is the most likely cause for everything. I don't think either one is 100%.

    I just hope we get closer to the "why" of it. I realize that some people can have a pretty normal life with the disorder, but some cannot at all. I just hope in the future the answer is there.

    "It is not length of life, but depth of life." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Thought breeds thought." ~ Henry David Thoreau

  4. #24
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    so you're admitting to being a conspiracy theorist. How else are we going to falsify your beliefs if you wont trust any information?
    What? I didn't start this thread asking you "to falsify my beliefs". I said that I vaccinated my baby under the assumption that what the mainstream tells me is correct and now I am finding out that there are other points of view. Who's talking about "conspiracy theory"? I already said before that I am trying to stick to information from qualified experts.

    And who says I "won't trust any information"? So any information outside of CNN, etc. is "no information"? I just don't trust that things are exactly as the mainstream media says because the mainstream media is bought and owned. It's not independent. That is a fact. And any point of view, including NY Times, is going to have some bias because that's just human. There are other valid points of view. If you read more than one point of view you are in a better position to come to your own point of view. I like to form my own opinion and am open-minded enough to consider what different people have to say, not have it dictated to me by a single source thank you very much.
    the shoheen ho of the wind of the west and the lulla lo of the soft sea billow - Alfred Graves

  5. #25
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lux View Post
    Thanks for the info. The subject is so interesting.

    I think that genetic predisposition mixed with environment is the most likely cause for everything. I don't think either one is 100%.

    I just hope we get closer to the "why" of it. I realize that some people can have a pretty normal life with the disorder, but some cannot at all. I just hope in the future the answer is there.

    I just wish the public and medical practitioners would learn to use technology in a more judicious way, instead of assuming that beneficial inventions are totally innocuous.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  6. #26
    Kraken down on piracy Lux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I just wish the public and medical practitioners would learn to use technology in a more judicious way, instead of assuming that beneficial inventions are totally innocuous.
    "It is not length of life, but depth of life." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

    "Thought breeds thought." ~ Henry David Thoreau

  7. #27
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    Yes, thanks for the info. I didn't even stop to think what the negative effect of ultrasounds might be. I am learning that I have to take a lot more responsibility for my medical treatment.
    the shoheen ho of the wind of the west and the lulla lo of the soft sea billow - Alfred Graves

  8. #28
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    We get one vaccine at a time. This is not because I think they're very harmful- it's because my son has febrile seizures and if a vaccine gives him a high enough fever to lead to a seizure, I want to know which one it is so I can pre-medicate him for the boosters. (Although I usually do that anyway.)

    I think the anti-vaccine thing is misinformed hype. But I agree about the Hep B vaccine- we didn't get it for our babies. We did get it before they started school, though, because while I don't think it's strictly speaking necessary, I also don't think it's harmful. I'm saving my protest for something more substantial.

    Also, vaccines don't cause autism, I am as confident about that as I am about anything.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
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  9. #29
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Yes, you are right. I found this:



    I think that statistic is so high that it points to more of an acute phenomenon since 1990, than a completely genetic component. I bet if I researched U/S stats, I'd find that U/S took off around that time period. (I know anecdotally it did, but don't feel like finding stats)

    But there is the hint of identical twins having more probs. Perhaps, as with vaccines, there is a genetic predisposition to ASD, and U/S exposure, as vaccine exposure, promotes and causes expression of these disorders, that might otherwise go undetected.
    I disagree. Here's a good link that explores the idea of an autism "epidemic."

    California’s Invisible Autism Epidemic Continues

    As Deb on Asperger Square 8 says, "Don't panic! It has always been this way."

    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  10. #30
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbah View Post
    What? I didn't start this thread asking you "to falsify my beliefs". I said that I vaccinated my baby under the assumption that what the mainstream tells me is correct and now I am finding out that there are other points of view. Who's talking about "conspiracy theory"? I already said before that I am trying to stick to information from qualified experts.

    And who says I "won't trust any information"? So any information outside of CNN, etc. is "no information"? I just don't trust that things are exactly as the mainstream media says because the mainstream media is bought and owned. It's not independent. That is a fact. And any point of view, including NY Times, is going to have some bias because that's just human. There are other valid points of view. If you read more than one point of view you are in a better position to come to your own point of view. I like to form my own opinion and am open-minded enough to consider what different people have to say, not have it dictated to me by a single source thank you very much.
    Your post had an air of, "dont trust the MAN and HIS newspapers! they are all bought by the corporations!!!"

    Generally, scientific beliefs need to be falsifiable. Thats what I meant. You can have a belief/position that is 100% falsifiable that is actually true. Its more about how you formulate the hypothesis. The comment about the mainstream media made me think about the conspiracy theorists who are basically unfalsifiable, because any contradicting information they chalk up to being "part of the conspiracy".

    FYI, I actually am against modern medicine when it comes to diet for example. I eat strictly paleo/ketogenic/high protein/high fat. I do not think that modern humans were designed to eat hundreds of grams of carbohydrates a day.

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