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Thread: Obesity myth

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    They're always either at school, or with childminders who provide structured activities for them under close supervision and regulations, or extra-curricular hothousing with academic and/or sports clubs.
    And that's causing an upswing in fat, violent children?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    And that's causing an upswing in fat, violent children?
    When they get to their teens, yes I think it is. I've seen many of them locally go that way - as soon as they get old enough to say No to their parents - to say "No, I don't want to go to the club, I just want to hang out with my friends, is that a crime?" they start to do just that, but because they haven't learned the skills of managing their own time or finding their own entertainment, risk assessment or responsibility, they just hang around without anything constructive to do, and get into trouble, they go around vandalizing stuff and fighting with each other. And without the childminders to cook them dinner when they get too old for childminders, they just grab a burger/takeaway and scoff it in front of the X Box while their parents are at work.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    When they get to their teens, yes I think it is. I've seen many of them locally go that way - as soon as they get old enough to say No to their parents - to say "No, I don't want to go to the club, I just want to hang out with my friends, is that a crime?" they start to do just that, but because they haven't learned the skills of managing their own time or finding their own entertainment, risk assessment or responsibility, they just hang around without anything constructive to do, and get into trouble, they go around vandalizing stuff and fighting with each other. And without the childminders to cook them dinner when they get too old for childminders, they just grab a burger/takeaway and scoff it in front of the X Box while their parents are at work.
    Well, again, it sounds like a cultural problem much like I described. The childminders can't replace the structure and institutions of the previous generations -- stay-at-home moms, extended family, etc.

    Just my opinion, of course.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Well, again, it sounds like a cultural problem much like I described. The childminders can't substitute for the institutions of the previous generations -- stay-at-home moms, extended family, etc.

    Just my opinion, of course.
    I'm not denying that it's a cultural problem, I'm not sure where you've got the impression that I mean to say that the governments efforts are causing the problem - if I did seem to imply that, then it was unintentional. I was just saying that whatever it is they're trying to do about the existing problem, it doesn't seem to be working here and in fact, seems to exacerbate it.

    I don't think stay-at-home moms or the decline of them is as much to do with it as the media whipping up a frenzy about child molesters and how it's not safe for kids to go out and play unsupervised. Parents are terrified of letting their kids just go out and ride their bikes around the block or call for their pals, even in broad daylight, and kids are still not allowed to go out without an adult long past the age that I remember myself and my contemporaries doing so all the time.

    I think it's more a case of these factors taking away the kids' opportunities to make their own mistakes at a younger age, to prepare them for the responsibilities that go with the freedoms they get when they're older. I've seen so many kids locally who don't even know how to cross a road independently by the age of ten.

    edit - they've been raised to a mentality and attitude of everything being the responsibility of someone else to take care of - all the technical stuff like making sure they don't get hurt, that others don't get hurt, that they don't do anything illegal, or solving problems when they get into trouble - all these things are the organizers' job to take care of and all they need to do is turn up and do as they're told and/or just do the activity. They live in these little bubble worlds where they just have no awareness of the wider consequences of their actions, and have little concern for it either - it's someone else's problem, it's up to someone else to sort that stuff out, we're just here to enjoy ourselves. They don't even have a sense of direction and don't know the way around their own home towns - it's always been someone else's job to plan routes and they just follow along.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I was just saying that whatever it is they're trying to do about the existing problem, it doesn't seem to be working here and in fact, seems to exacerbate it.
    Oh, okay. Maybe they're still casting around for solutions, IOW the debate is still ongoing.

    I'm not sure a quick fix exists. We can't turn back the clock. And I agree that simply scheduling every minute of a kid's day with activities isn't a guaranteed fix. It's like sending a kid off to boarding school--it works for some kids, but it makes other kids even worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I don't think stay-at-home moms or the decline of them is as much to do with it as the media whipping up a frenzy about child molesters and how it's not safe for kids to go out and play unsupervised. Parents are terrified of letting their kids just go out and ride their bikes around the block or call for their pals, even in broad daylight, and kids are still not allowed to go out without an adult long past the age that I remember myself and my contemporaries doing so all the time.

    I think it's more a case of these factors taking away the kids' opportunities to make their own mistakes at a younger age, to prepare them for the responsibilities that go with the freedoms they get when they're older. I've seen so many kids locally who don't even know how to cross a road independently by the age of ten.
    I agree about these problems. We have these problems all here, as well, and they're only getting worse as everything gets more urbanized.

    Again, I'm not sure there's a quick fix. The government is a blunt instrument, so there's only so much it can do before it cease to be effective and simply gets in the way. But I don't see the culture fixing these problems either. The problems largely spring from the culture in the first place.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Again, I'm not sure there's a quick fix. The government is a blunt instrument, so there's only so much it can do before it cease to be effective and simply gets in the way. But I don't see the culture fixing these problems either. The problems largely spring from the culture in the first place.
    Yeah... I think it could start with the media reporting when crime figures are DOWN, rather than always just obsessing about when they're UP, and reporting it in a more balanced way without omitting to mention that the majority of those 'crimes' are things like parking tickets and weflare benefit fraud - things that are of no direct danger to children out riding their bikes. The media needs to do something to fix the problem they've created in the name of ratings, to let parents know that there isn't actually a pedophile hiding behind every bush and that in fact, it's quite safe for their kid to go out and play, and that a grazed knee or even a broken leg is actually all part and parcel of a healthy childhood and not the end of the world and a sign of them being a bad parent.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Yeah... I think it could start with the media reporting when crime figures are DOWN, rather than always just obsessing about when they're UP, and reporting it in a more balanced way without omitting to mention that the majority of those 'crimes' are things like parking tickets and weflare benefit fraud - things that are of no direct danger to children out riding their bikes. The media needs to do something to fix the problem they've created in the name of ratings, to let parents know that there isn't actually a pedophile hiding behind every bush and that in fact, it's quite safe for their kid to go out and play, and that a grazed knee or even a broken leg is actually all part and parcel of a healthy childhood and not the end of the world and a sign of them being a bad parent.
    Heh. I agree with you there. I always thought that 24-hour news channels were a bad idea. They force news people to go out and dig up any bad news just to fill the airtime. When I was growing up, there was one hour of news in the evening, and that was it.

    Oh well, I'll drop the issue. It affects you much more directly as a current parent than me. My wife and I just have to keep our own backsides from getting too broad. Assuming we can insulate ourselves from the worst manifestations of modern culture, we generally don't have to worry about how social trends or public policy affect the kids today--it's no longer our problem.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Heh. I agree with you there. I always thought that 24-hour news channels were a bad idea. They force news people to go out and dig up any bad news just to fill the airtime. When I was growing up, there was one hour of news in the evening, and that was it.
    Yeah, I do wonder just exactly what it's supposed to achieve or what we're supposed to gain by knowing about every little nasty thing that happens all over the world. Seems tailored to create a sense of profound impotence, cynicism or even nihilism.

    Oh well, I'll drop the issue. It affects you much more directly as a current parent than me.
    Not just as a parent, but all the youth work I do in the community as a proto-priest
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Yeah, I do wonder just exactly what it's supposed to achieve or what we're supposed to gain by knowing about every little nasty thing that happens all over the world. Seems tailored to create a sense of profound impotence, cynicism or even nihilism.
    I wouldn't want to go back to the old days for anything. I love the Internet and all the modern tools and having everything at my fingertips. The old days before the Internet just absolutely sucked. It took forever to hunt down and mail order a car part or a foreign book or a good pair of shoes.

    But I wonder about the younger generation growing up with 24/7 connection to everything happening in the world. Seems like a recipe for burn-out or worse. Like you said--impotence, cynicism, and nihilism.

    I actually have a tremendous amount of admiration for the younger posters here. They show a lot of maturity. If I had been able to spill out all my teenage angst on public message boards in my youth, I'm not sure I would have been nearly as restrained and sensible as the kids here.

    Oh well, it's a new era. The kids will have to make their own peace with it.

    Reminds me of an old song. The subject was a different one, but the sense is similar.

    He's a rebel and a runner
    He's a signal turning green
    He's a restless young romantic
    Wants to run the big machine

    He's got a problem with his poisons
    But you know he'll find a cure
    He's cleaning up his systems
    To keep his nature pure

    Learning to match the beat of the Old World Man
    Learning to catch the heat of the Third World Man

    He's got to make his own mistakes
    And learn to mend the mess he makes
    He's old enough to know what's right
    But young enough not to choose it
    He's noble enough to win the world
    But weak enough to lose it
    He's a New World Man...

    He's a radio receiver
    Tuned to factories and farms
    He's a writer and arranger
    And a young boy bearing arms

    He's got a problem with his power
    With weapons on patrol
    He's got to walk a fine line
    And keep his self-control

    Trying to save the day for the Old World Man
    Trying to pave the way for the Third World Man

    He's not concerned with yesterday
    He knows constant change is here today
    He's noble enough to know what's right
    But weak enough not to choose it
    He's wise enough to win the world
    But fool enough to lose it
    He's a New World Man...

    (Rush, "New World Man")

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Brad Pitt is not outside the BMI index. Anyways, they use other methods of measure in order to account for different body types.

    It seems you are emotive on the issue since you can't seem to extrapolate the difference between being fat and being obese. Here is the wiki article on obesity. I think you can see how the health risks are part of the definition. If you have substantially higher body fat, then you are at risk for health problems. If you have evidence to the contrary then I would love to see it.
    Ok. To start off. What I'm saying is there here's what often (you just say it in another thread) happens: person X is fat or thinks they're fat, so they excercise. Then they get into great shape (or at least much better shape than I've ever been in) and they should be happy with themselves. But they're effort didn't make them skinny and our culture tells them that that makes them inferior human beings, either because some drug-company funded study said that they're irresponsible, or because someone like you makes a completely unfounded claim that they're somehow less responsible than you because of the way they're naturally built.
    The thing is, the studies that supposedly correlate obesity with increased mortality and certian deseases? those are very subjective claims to make! And really, even for obese people the health risk is tiny: mortality a few months ahead of time.
    On the other hand, one CAN conclusively state that yo-yo (loosing and regaining wieght) dieting has adverse long term health effects. Also remember. The former study can't adjust to the people who might have higher mortality AS A RESULT of the rediculous deiting standards that the mainstream medical community tries to get these people to do (In the book is a real life story by an 'obese' person who went to his docter with a sinus infection and got a lecture about his wieght- which is why I don't trust the medical community on this one).

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