Gym Class: Why Kids' Exercise Matters Less Than We Think

[Quinlan]

I never minded when you guys skipped school... I always wished they wouldn't make you come back, because I could TELL how much you didn't want to be there. I never wanted you to be there, any more than you wanted to be there.

Well, I guess in your world, I'd end up skipping school to hang out at a library or something, probably end up flunking out due to stubbornness and frustration. Your world doesn't fix the problem, just makes everyone else as miserable as SPs were before. But I guess SPs don't have enough empathy to care about that, huh?

I was just playing, I know that wouldn't suit everyone, that is just the kind of place that would've have made me eager to get to school each day. I suppose here towards the end of highschool we do have more freedom with what we want to learn, by then though I bet a lot of SPs have given up or are too far behind for it matter.

But seriously, what is it with you guys and that stuff? I mean, I can do physical stuff if I've got to, but it's boring and exhausting. And not only that, it's dangerous enough in some ways that I actually have to pay attention to it. The worst part is that if I screw up, everyone knows about it and I look bad. Not to mention that I don't like open competition and doing things at the expense of other people.

I mean, I can do intellectual and abstract stuff if I've got to, but it's boring and exhausting. Really this massive value placed on intellectual and abstract intelligence, is completely subjective. Why does applying the mind to the abstract world hold more value than applying the mind to interaction with the physical world, when it comes to sports, it is far more mental than people give it credit, your body is just a tool, it is still your mind that is in control. I think it was yourself that said that you think of "kinesthetic intelligence" as an insult. Is there any reasoning behind this bias? Other than it doesn't come naturally to you, so it's written off as meaningless? The value we place on different kinds of intelligence is entirely subjective.

 

[Quinlan]

That, if adjusted a bit, would be lovely. I hated PE, mostly because the structure of it bothered me. Free-form play or any of the "free" days we had where the teachers set up a bunch of fields outside and let people play what they wanted were the best.

My best memories of PE were always with the laziest of teachers, they basically let us run it ourselves.

 

[Athenian200]

I was just playing, I know that wouldn't suit everyone, that is just the kind of place that would've have made me eager to get to school each day. I suppose here towards the end of highschool we do have more freedom with what we want to learn, by then though I bet a lot of SPs have given up or are too far behind for it matter.

I know. I really did feel sorry for them, wished they wouldn't even make them go to school. Some of them were still sounding out words in 12th grade English.

I mean, I can do intellectual and abstract stuff if I've got to, but it's boring and exhausting. Really this massive value placed on intellectual and abstract intelligence, is completely subjective.

It is for me (because I like it and I'm more comfortable with it), but try asking an NT, and I'm sure they'll give you thousands of objective reasons why it's more important.

Why does applying the mind to the abstract world hold more value than applying the mind to interaction with the physical world, when it comes to sports, it is far more mental than people give it credit, your body is just a tool, it is still your mind that is in control.

Well, because the physical world is... arbitrary and unfair in many ways. It's a harsh place that often punishes people for things they have no control over, and takes away a lot of your freedom to decide how your life should unfold. Lots of stuff is just "you have it or you don't." A person who likes the physical world is basically indicating that they're comfortable with this kind of injustice. Also, you really only get a small window in life to interact with the physical world. Between 16-28, I think, is the peak for that. Abstract, intellectual stuff can be a part of your life as long as your mind works.

I think it was yourself that said that you think of "kinesthetic intelligence" as an insult. Is there any reasoning behind this bias?

The reasoning is this. If a person scores low on verbal, logical, interpersonal, and every other kind of intelligence, clearly has a poor grasp of most subjects... and they score well on "kinesthetic intelligence," it pretty much makes it obvious what's going on. It's a polite way of calling someone stupid, but avoiding it by focusing on their only strength.

Other than it doesn't come naturally to you, so it's written off as meaningless? The value we place on different kinds of intelligence is entirely subjective.

It is? Well, what about this: Physical intelligence is really only useful for a small portion of life, and doesn't apply to a wide variety of situations. All the other kinds do.

Okay, perhaps it does have value, and I am being subjective. I don't know, because I can't see it very clearly. An INJ is probably not the best person to ask about the value of the physical. It's like asking fire what it thinks of water.

 

[Quinlan]

It is for me (because I like it and I'm more comfortable with it), but try asking an NT, and I'm sure they'll give you thousands of objective reasons why it's more important.

I would be interested in hearing from them.

Well, because the physical world is... arbitrary and unfair in many ways. It's a harsh place that often punishes people for things they have no control over, and takes away a lot of your freedom to decide how your life should unfold. Lots of stuff is just "you have it or you don't." A person who likes the physical world is basically indicating that they're comfortable with this kind of injustice.

A lot of sensors don't have as much control in the abstract world as the physical, this is all a matter of perspective. I can't see how one could be "better" or "fairer" than the other.

Also, you really only get a small window in life to interact with the physical world. Between 16-28, I think, is the peak for that. Abstract, intellectual stuff can be a part of your life as long as your mind works.

Only severe disability will prevent anyone's interaction with either world if they want to.

The reasoning is this. If a person scores low on verbal, logical, interpersonal, and every other kind of intelligence, clearly has a poor grasp of most subjects... and they score well on "kinesthetic intelligence," it pretty much makes it obvious what's going on. It's a polite way of calling someone stupid, but avoiding it by focusing on their only strength.

It's not obvious to me "what's going on", other than someone is applying their mind in a way that you don't value and so you disregard it.

It is? Well, what about this: Physical intelligence is really only useful for a small portion of life, and doesn't apply to a wide variety of situations. All the other kinds do.

Subjective, an SP will interact with the physical world their whole life, that is what a lot of life is really about for them. Honing skills in the physical world is valuable from their perspective.

It's like asking fire what it thinks of water.

That's exactly what I mean by subjective, there is no real reason for either to look down upon the other, they're just different.

 

[Athenian200]

A lot of sensors don't have as much control in the abstract world as the physical, this is all a matter of perspective. I can't see how one could be "better" or "fairer" than the other.

Well, it's that you (mostly) can't do anything about your height, gender, appearance, race, genes, reflexes, etc. And those things all affect how you experience physical reality far more than any personal/character traits that you can learn/train, or otherwise have control over. Anyone can learn how to think and process abstractions. Right?

Only severe disability will prevent anyone's interaction with either world if they want to.

Okay, granted. I guess that's right.

It's not obvious to me "what's going on", other than someone is applying their mind in a way that you don't value and so you disregard it.

Fine, you're probably right there too.

Subjective, an SP will interact with the physical world their whole life, that is what a lot of life is really about for them. Honing skills in the physical world is valuable from their perspective.

But there are no "skills" in the physical world. There it's all about natural talent.

That's exactly what I mean by subjective, there is no real reason for either to look down upon the other, they're just different.

You DO know that if you pour water on fire, the fire dies, right?

The physical world destroys and devalues mental/abstract beings in the same way water destroys fire. I have a real motive for devaluing it... survival.

 

[juggernaut]

It is? Well, what about this: Physical intelligence is really only useful for a small portion of life, and doesn't apply to a wide variety of situations. All the other kinds do.

Okay, perhaps it does have value, and I am being subjective. I don't know, because I can't see it very clearly. An INJ is probably not the best person to ask about the value of the physical. It's like asking fire what it thinks of water.

Physical intelligence is useful at every stage of life. Even healthy NTs know that. You are stuck with your body until the day you die. If you don't learn to use it and care for it properly your mind will go long before you slough off that mortal coil. My favorite professor, an INTJ who teaches advanced logic, does a minimum of an hour of purposeful physical activity every single day. He'll be 80 in January and can still bust out a 40-line proof in less time than it takes me to put together a moderately readable paragraph.

 

[Athenian200]

Physical intelligence is useful at every stage of life. Even healthy NTs know that. You are stuck with your body until the day you die. If you don't learn to use it and care for it properly your mind will go long before you slough off that mortal coil.

But... I don't WANT it. I hate it. It's not good enough for me to live with. If I've got to deal with it, perhaps I'm better off dead.

 

[Quinlan]

Well, it's that you (mostly) can't do anything about your height, gender, appearance, race, genes, reflexes, etc. And those things all affect how you experience physical reality far more than any personal/character traits that you can learn/train, or otherwise have control over.

I don't agree with that at all, I don't see how those things would effect your abilty to, carve a statue for instance. Are you really saying that physical techniques aren't learnt and trained? I know I would have my money on a team of well trained and drilled sportsmen if they were playing people straight off the street.

I would prefer a short, female, ugly, and well trained carpenter build my house than a tall, male, handsome untrained person build my house.

But there are no "skills" in the physical world. There it's all about natural talent.

That's bizarre, see above.

You DO know that if you pour water on fire, the fire dies, right?

The physical world destroys and devalues mental/abstract beings in the same way water destroys fire. I have a real motive for devaluing it... survival.

I don't understand this.

 

[Athenian200]

I don't agree with that at all, I don't see how those things would effect your abilty to, carve a statue for instance. Are you really saying that physical techniques aren't learnt and trained? I know I would have my money on a team of well trained and drilled sportsmen if they were playing people straight off the street.

I would prefer a short, female, ugly, and well trained carpenter build my house than a tall, male, handsome untrained person build my house.



That's bizarre, see above.

Okay, then.

I obviously don't understand the physical world at all. It's just a jumbled nightmare to me. I'm sorry I didn't realize it worked differently for you.

I don't understand this.

It basically means that I feel constantly threatened by the physical world, as if it's actually trying to destroy and torture me. I fear the physical the way most religious people fear Hell. Except I know it's real.

 

[juggernaut]

But... I don't WANT it. I hate it. It's not good enough for me to live with. If I've got to deal with it, perhaps I'm better off dead.

You have no mind without it, so if you truly do value the mental/abstract, you might want to reconsider what you've said. There is no mind without matter. The matter that comprises your mind is the exact same stuff that your body and the rest of the material world is made of. This dichotomy you seem to think is possible does not, and cannot, exist. That is the real reason the body, health, activity, and a physical connection to the world matter. Every perception, and by extension every thought (abstract or concrete) you have, depends wholly on your body. If you neglect the body, you're neglecting your mind by default. There is no such thing as a mind without a body. Minds require bodies.

 

[juggernaut]

Okay, then.

I obviously don't understand the physical world at all. It's just a jumbled nightmare to me. I'm sorry I didn't realize it worked differently for you.



It basically means that I feel constantly threatened by the physical world, as if it's actually trying to destroy and torture me. I fear the physical the way most religious people fear Hell. Except I know it's real.

If this is how you genuinely feel, you may be in need of medical care. As an objective outsider, it sounds as if something is chemically off. Please don't think I'm implying you need medication, however, as it may be something that could be dealt with behavior modification. You should not have to feel this way. The physical world is not your enemy. Again, you as a "self" do not exist without it.

 

[JocktheMotie]

I think there are valuable lessons that can be learned in PE; it isn't just an energy release/health tool. Some kids learn differently. Some will learn the value of teamwork in a group presentation or project, others will learn it during a game of capture the flag or basketball. Some kids will find pride in creating a painting, others in winning the game. Some will be engaged when learning about atoms, others will be engaged when learning the technique of a long jump.

It seems to me, the only people who don't like PE just weren't very good at it, which is understandable. I hate art, because I suck at art. I liked PE, because I'm athletic and I like sports. And really, who doesn't enjoy dumping some kid on his ass with a perfectly spotted dodgeball to the face

 

[Athenian200]

You have no mind without it, so if you truly do value the mental/abstract, you might want to reconsider what you've said. There is no mind without matter. The matter that comprises your mind is the exact same stuff that your body and the rest of the material world is made of. This dichotomy you seem to think is possible does not, and cannot, exist. That is the real reason the body, health, activity, and a physical connection to the world matter. Every perception, and by extension every thought (abstract or concrete) you have, depends wholly on your body. If you neglect the body, you're neglecting your mind by default. There is no such thing as a mind without a body. Minds require bodies.

But I don't want a physical connection to the world. I don't want to be active in it. I hate it. It's disgusting and unacceptable.

You just couldn't understand.

 

[juggernaut]

^I wasn't a jock in high school. I ran because of what it gave me psychologically. I didn't do it because "I love life!". I do appreciate life now, but physical activity was more of a release/drug when I was young. What makes you think I can't understand being disgusted by the world, or finding it unacceptable? Do I strike you as a happy little camper?

 

[Haphazard]

I think there are valuable lessons that can be learned in PE; it isn't just an energy release/health tool. Some kids learn differently. Some will learn the value of teamwork in a group presentation or project, others will learn it during a game of capture the flag or basketball. Some kids will find pride in creating a painting, others in winning the game. Some will be engaged when learning about atoms, others will be engaged when learning the technique of a long jump.

It seems to me, the only people who don't like PE just weren't very good at it, which is understandable. I hate art, because I suck at art. I liked PE, because I'm athletic and I like sports. And really, who doesn't enjoy dumping the slow kid on his ass with a perfectly spotted dodgeball to the face

The slow kid?

Think about it. If your first memories of intense physical activity are full of humiliation, you're not going to want to relive that and try the activity again. What is fun for some is setting up the others for a sedentary lifetime of obesity and heart problems.

 

[JocktheMotie]

The slow kid?

Think about it. If your first memories of intense physical activity are full of humiliation, you're not going to want to relive that and try the activity again. What is fun for some is setting up the others for a sedentary lifetime of obesity and heart problems.

Okay? I've "lost" and been "humiliated" in the physical arena as well as the academic arena, and in no way did it retard my development or make me give up and doom the rest of my life. If you're going to try and eliminate conflict from everyone's life as they develop, they're going to be terrible at dealing with it when it inevitably comes.

 

[Haphazard]

Okay? I've "lost" and been "humiliated" in the physical arena as well as the academic arena, and in no way did it retard my development or make me give up and doom the rest of my life. If you're going to try and eliminate conflict from everyone's life as they develop, they're going to be terrible at dealing with it when it inevitably comes.

It only becomes a problem when it becomes a cycle, and in many cases it does. There are certain times when humiliation works, but when it's for someone's personal development rather than trying to further a group goal, it's usually ineffective.

My point is that the slow kid isn't going to get any faster the more dodgeballs you throw in his face.

 

[Quinlan]

I played in a chess tournament once on a whim, being well beaten by everyone was hilarious.

 

[Haphazard]

I played in a chess tournament once on a whim, being well beaten by everyone was hilarious.

Did they throw chess pieces in your face?

I hear the bishops can quite hurt if they get in your eye.




Nobody forced you into this chess tournament, did they? Were you getting graded on it?

 

[Synarch]

Okay? I've "lost" and been "humiliated" in the physical arena as well as the academic arena, and in no way did it retard my development or make me give up and doom the rest of my life. If you're going to try and eliminate conflict from everyone's life as they develop, they're going to be terrible at dealing with it when it inevitably comes.

I mostly agree with you, however in reading pieces of Gladwell's "Outliers" he makes a case for how being slightly older than your peers developmentally gives you additional confidence and a leg up in performance that carries you throughout life. I have also seen parents who hold their kids back from starting school until they are slightly older. Maybe something similar (with confidence) could be at play here.