Admitting your faults

[Economica]

Now, I'm more aware of my faults myself so I don't feel hurt when I'm criticized. I think the keys are awareness and openness to others (getting rid of self-righteousness), in order to be more cooperative when it comes to valid criticism.

Thanks for sharing, Shimpei. I see I should've addressed my query to IXXJs. I guess I forgot that you guys can be pretty resistant to criticism too.

May I ask how you in practice went about getting rid of self-righteousness? I'm thinking that it must be key to hone other qualities to be appreciated for than being oracular so that it is not as fatal for self-esteem to be wrong... or to not be opinionated about everything. (You know: I judge, therefore I exist. )

 

[RDF]

[...] What I want to know is how difficult you find admitting your faults to yourself. What are your reactions to the person/people that tells you about yourself? Do you deny? Blame? Begin criticizing the other person to take the heat of yourself? [...]

I don't tend to see negative personal characteristics in a relationship as "faults." Instead I tend to see them as "relationship irritants." It's rare that personal characteristics are negative in all of one's relationships. More likely, individual personal characteristics are positive in some circumstances and relationships and negative in others.

For example:

1) Let's say I take command and run the show at work. That characteristic is admired and rewarded in the workplace by my bosses and coworkers (and even my subordinates). But at home, my wife insists that I'm pushy and make all the decisions and don't treat her as an equal. So that characteristic is a positive personal characteristic in the workplace but a relationship irritant in my marriage.

2) Let's say I spend a lot of time in bars drinking with my friends. It's a positive characteristic with my friends but a relationship irritant with my boss, who is tired of me showing up at work with hangovers or getting drunk over lunchtime.

3) Let's say my wife is more of a perfectionist than me; so when we do things together, I feel like she sucks the fun out of them by working too hard at them. But if we don't push for perfection, she gets bored or irritated that we're missing out on an important part of the experience. It's hard to say who is at "fault" in a situation like this.

4) And so on.

My feeling is that a lot of my personal characteristics are positive in one or more environments, but they don't necessarily translate well into a different environment. To be quiet and introverted may be great at work, but it isn't so great when I go out to social events. Or a personal characteristic of mine may be perfectly fine with my wife for the first five years of our marriage but then she starts complaining about it in the sixth year. Perhaps she says, "I always knew you were shy and bookish, but I thought you would grow out of it. I'm tired of this. We need to get out and start doing more social things."

I think this gets more into the real nature of relationships. It's usually not the case that a relationship is doomed by a single "fault" (or succeeds because of a lack of "faults"). You never really get rid of the "faults," because there are always new irritants cropping up in long-term relationships. There are always new strains. And since individual frictions usually only crop up in one relationship (at least initially) out of many in a given person's life, they may seem entirely subjective and arbitrary.

Rather it's my experience that, over the long-term, relationships fall into either a virtuous cycle of dealing successfully with routine irritants or into a vicious cycle of stumbling and struggling with routine irritants and frictions. IOW, I think it comes down to conflict resolution skills. How much leverage do we give key people in our life to change characteristics of ourselves? Do we dig in our heels? Do we insist on sharing the pain by demanding a reciprocal change from the other person?

(Not disagreeing with the OP; just restating it a bit.)

Anyway, my own answer: The wife and the boss get a lot of leeway to demand change from me. Friends--not so much, since they are more disposable. And meantime I work on the general concept of getting better at conflict resolution rather than worrying about individual "faults." I figure that if I can get the overall mechanism down, the details (the separate conflicts) will take care of themselves.

FL

 

[Economica]

I don't tend to see negative personal characteristics in a relationship as "faults." Instead I tend to see them as "relationship irritants." It's rare that personal characteristics are negative in all of one's relationships. More likely, individual personal characteristics are positive in some circumstances and relationships and negative in others.

But when the characteristics do bug everyone, they're faults, right?

Great post, FL.

 

[RDF]

But when the characteristics do bug everyone, they're faults, right?

Ummm.... I would hate to admit that I might have any true faults. So let's call them bargaining chips that could potentially be cashed in for profit with a whole lot of people.

Great post, FL.

Thanks!

FL

 

[cafe]

Toonia, your examples are all professional/artistic, do you find you react differently to inter-relational type criticism? I, personally, can deal better with the kinds of criticism you described than inter-relational/personal criticism. A prof red-inking all over my essay isn't pleasant, but it isn't a bad thing, he's just helping me improve. A family member or friend commenting on my attitude or how I run my home is a whole 'nuther ballgame.

For example, when my kids were four, six, eight, and ten, my ten year old could not tie her shoes. Somehow it came up when my dad and his girlfriend were visiting and I said that I had tried and tried to teach her, but eventually I gave up because she just wasn't getting it. GF says, "That's where you dropped the ball."

I'm thinking "I've got four kids in a tiny student housing apartment, I'm trying to home-school them on a shoestring while my husband works and goes to school full-time. I've got balls dropped all over the damn place. And besides that, the kid that can't tie her shoes was reading at a post-high school level in second grade, so bite me." What I said was "Well, my sanity's worth something."

If she had something useful to say like, "Have you tried teaching her using this method?" then I'd have been just fine.

 

[proteanmix]

To echo Economica, do you not think legitimate faults exists, they're just relative to the situation?

All of your examples are relevant, but they seem more like traits than faults. Personality traits are different from personality faults although they overlap. Faults can change, traits can't. I'm not really asking about negative personality traits, but actual faults we have that need to change.

I know many people that have the same reoccurring problems in relationships because of a flaw they have. Many people have said to them, you need to change X about yourself. It's possible that they do it so much that it becomes a part of their personality, but it wasn't always so. These are not positive in any situation (or very rare ones). Shouldn't a person work on these things?

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

That was a really excellent post, FineLine. You are probably right about that being the main deal with relationships. There are times when a person can be wrong or earning criticism such as in ideas, skills, etc. Not sure how one would reconcile where that line is drawn. I do appreciate the overall tone of your post because it reframes unsuccessful relationships as something other than failure. That would be healthier for most people to not feel as hopeless. I do feel a little uncomfortable with the idea of asking someone to change for you. I've been married a while now and I don't consciously do that. The idea that someone would or even could change seems unlikely to me. I've leaned towards finding my own way to cope or solve problems, but maybe that's not recommended. People are complex, life is complex.

 

[RDF]

To echo Economica, do you not think legitimate faults exists, they're just relative to the situation?

All of your examples are relevant, but they seem more like traits than faults. Personality traits are different from personality faults although they overlap. Faults can change, traits can't. I'm not really asking about negative personality traits, but actual faults we have that need to change.

I know many people that have the same reoccurring problems in relationships because of a flaw they have. Many people have said to them, you need to change X about yourself. It's possible that they do it so much that it becomes a part of their personality, but it wasn't always so. These are not positive in any situation (or very rare ones).

Maybe you could provide an example or two.

Shouldn't a person work on these things?

Actually, I think anything (trait, fault, etc.) is at least negotiable. Even if I can't deliver precisely what my wife wants from me, I might be able to give her something else. You never know the relative value of things until you sit down and dicker a bit.

For me in the past, the biggest problem in dealing with relationship problems was always taking the other person seriously. I used to minimize the other person's complaints, figuring that they just needed to chill out a bit.

But nowadays if my wife enunciates a problem, I sit down and listen to her. Even if I can't deliver what she wants on the spot, maybe I can give her a little extra attention in other ways. Or if we can get it out in the open, then maybe she can point it out whenever it happens so I can examine for myself what's happening.

The main thing for me, though, is simply to take seriously whatever she might have to say. From there, a lot of solutions or trade-offs are possible. Even if it's something I don't feel I can deliver, at the very least I'll ponder it for a while with the intent of finding a trade-off somewhere else.

Basically, the starting point is to let her know that if something's important to her, then I'm going to make it important to me too. That usually helps alleviate the immediate concerns. Then we'll see where we can go from there.

FL

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I'm thinking "I've got four kids in a tiny student housing apartment, I'm trying to home-school them on a shoestring while my husband works and goes to school full-time. I've got balls dropped all over the damn place. And besides that, the kid that can't tie her shoes was reading at a post-high school level in second grade, so bite me." What I said was "Well, my sanity's worth something."

If she had something useful to say like, "Have you tried teaching her using this method?" then I'd have been just fine.

Between your post and mine, the difference between constructive and destructive criticism crystallizes. Also, there is an implied question of motive in all your examples. There is a patronizing tone to what and how they delivered their criticism. It sounds to me like it was more about them demonstrating their assumed superiority rather than actually attempting to be helpful. There should be two completely different words to describe those two processes. When it looks like someone is just playing a game of social dominance, i run if i can, but cross them off my list for future interactions if at all possible.

It is also different when a person is completely run down and confronted with condescending criticism. If a person is well rested and feeling good, the best option out is to laugh. I wouldn't be able to if continually confronted with it. It would wear me down. I do have an in-law that has accused me of loving cats more than children. Annoying, but also hilarious. When people take that tone, it's a little tempting to toy with them and push it to the absurd.

 

[RDF]

That was a really excellent post, FineLine. You are probably right about that being the main deal with relationships. There are times when a person can be wrong or earning criticism such as in ideas, skills, etc. Not sure how one would reconcile where that line is drawn. I do appreciate the overall tone of your post because it reframes unsuccessful relationships as something other than failure. That would be healthier for most people to not feel as hopeless. I do feel a little uncomfortable with the idea of asking someone to change for you. I've been married a while now and I don't consciously do that. The idea that someone would or even could change seems unlikely to me. I've leaned towards finding my own way to cope or solve problems, but maybe that's not recommended. People are complex, life is complex.

Up to now I've been talking about when someone comes to me asking me to change. Asking someone else to make changes is tougher, I'll grant you.

When it comes to asking my wife for a change, I know from experience that there are some things she can't deliver and some things she can. For example, I may ask her to keep the house cleaner, but I know from experience that it'll only last a little time.

But if we can get it out in the open, we can often at least find some compromises: Maybe she will agree to at least keep her artistic clutter confined to one or two rooms. Or maybe she'll say, "I tried, but there's no closet space." So maybe the ball comes back to me and I have to build her some more shelves.

If my wife and I discuss a problem, we can often at least chip away at the edges in a way that will stick. And if enough headway is made over time, it may turn out that the problem ceases to be a problem. If I see she's making effort, I may be able to forgive the remainder of the problem. Especially if there are issues that can't be resolved, like storage space and time issues.

To me, the main thing is to chat a little bit and get a show of good faith on both sides. From there, you don't necessarily get a solution but you at least get over the immediate exasperation of the problem and buy a little time.

You don't often get what you want, of course. But you do communicate and get a sense that the other person's looking out for you the best they can. And that can really help out sometimes in getting past the problem one way or another. If nothing else, it gets you past any paranoia that the other person has just ceased to care or is taking advantage of you. And from there maybe you can start edging in the direction of some middle ground.

FL

 

[RDF]

Actually, I think anything (trait, fault, etc.) is at least negotiable. Even if I can't deliver precisely what my wife wants from me, I might be able to give her something else. You never know the relative value of things until you sit down and dicker a bit.

I just want to add:

Sometimes problems arise because the romance has drained out of the marriage a bit. We're more forgiving early in the relationship when we're still fresh and new to each other, and more critical of each other in the later years.

Many problems can be solved by simply heading out in town, going dancing, and courting each other a bit again. A little romancing goes a long way. If we've gotten out of the habit and it feels silly or awkward to act like love-struck kids again, then we make a game of it. But one way or the other, it's always good to make that effort and get back in the habit of really liking each other's company.

FL

 

[Zhash]

I thought about this today, mainly because I had to deal with it today. Stress is a killer for me and right now I'm stressed at work with a nasty deadline that's been looming for 6 or 7 weeks. Between that stress, having my in-laws over yesterday and skipping a dose of meds / hormones, I was a basket case last night - panic attack time.

I should have known it was coming; I've known deep down that I've been hanging on by a thread for a few days now. I do the denial thing. Pretend it's OK so no one gets worried or upset and hope it will be OK.

I keep it in around my husband (Ironically, SJ) because I think know he doesn't understand half the time what's wrong. I swear he thinks I'm just being difficult on purpose. So I feel a tad guilty about not letting him know how I'm feeling - especially when he'll tell me how he's feeling before he tells himself. So we discussed that today as well.

I'm also insensitive a lot of the time - his exact words to me yesterday. This is something we've discussed at length. I'm not a fan of his immediate family, at least not on some days and I'm not really good with groups of people to beging with. So I try harder with them, because I know he's right, I can be incredibly insensitive, and I know it matters to him that I'm not with his sister and BIL. Of course he'd like me to be sensitive and caring to the mailman, hence the discussion and laying down of just who gets the extra special effort.

MB is something that's of interest to me because I need to know how other people think and why they do what they do. I've explained that to him as well; he's said to me recently "Oh you're just using that to rationalize bad behaviour" which kind of shocked me. I'm using to better understand why we don't see eye to eye on things and where problems errupt so I can not get upset with him and so I can modify my behaviour so it doesn't make him so crazy.

I understand. I have found that when an INTJ is under pressure, all hell breaks loose. When your balance is off; everything is off. INTJs are such high achievers and are constantly striving for excellence that it is easy for them to get burned out. My advice (for what it's worth) is to get a less stressful job that lets you work autonomously. Live a modest lifestyle and you will be much happier.

 

[Natrushka]

Any INXJs out there who have overcome this problem want to recount how they did it?

Detachement helps. Remembering to be detached is also a bonus

 

[Natrushka]

I understand. I have found that when an INTJ is under pressure, all hell breaks loose. When your balance is off; everything is off. INTJs are such high achievers and are constantly striving for excellence that it is easy for them to get burned out. My advice (for what it's worth) is to get a less stressful job that lets you work autonomously. Live a modest lifestyle and you will be much happier.

I'm ready to retire; that would help

My job has periods of incredible stress, like this one. However there hasn't been a stretch like it in about 18 months.

Your advice is well taken, though. In future, there will be a 'no-socializing zone' set up around such releases.

 

[Red Memories]

I go through a process when someone offers me criticism.

1. Cry.
Ah yes standard emotional response. I will fall into a sense of loathing of "great I've been fucking terrible all along how dare I fuck up like every other human does" you know.

2. Assess the criticism.
Once my initial emotional response subsides within the hour, I spend more time "Brooding" on the criticism. I will nit pick it. I may ask others if they see a behavior in me. I may analyze my actions or words which might have created such a feeling.

3. Decide the validity of the criticsm
If the source of said criticism has ill will for me in general I am less likely to take a critique from them as an attempt to create growth in me. If I cannot perceive this thing I may discredit it.

4. If there is a solution, remedy it.
I prefer to take the time to find solutions to the issues that come my way, including those who have one with me.

 

[Morpeko]

Criticism intrigues me. I tend not to have much of an outward reaction to it when it's done in-person. Inside, I eat it all up.

If it's done online, I can get defensive unless I immediately see how it applies. Usually, I tend to ruminate over it first before reacting, but if it's blatantly wrong/uncalled for, then I can get edgy.

When the criticism is correct, and a lot of the time it can be, I don't really do much about it besides internalize it as part of my identity.