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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    If it's impossible unless you want to change, do you resent the other person for criticizing you? As if the constant reminder indicates your failure to do anything about it. Knowing you need to change is meaningless to the other person unless you manifest some changes. It's not enough to be your own worst critic, it actually makes the situation a bit sorrier because you know you have a problem and do nothing to fix it.
    It can be, definitely. Some people are much more comfortable with themselves, or have a strong ego that needs to be assertively challenged before it will reconsider its own viewpoint.

    Usually for me personally, I *was* trying to fix the flaw and pushing myself far too hard to make an overnight change, when more time was required. So when someone else pointed it out, it used to make me feel more inadequate and embarrassed... especially if they were treating me cynically.

    And yes, then when I get in situations where I find myself apathetic to fixing the item in question, then I get cynical about myself. (Fun cycle. )

    It seems to me that people say they want honest criticism, but when they get it they don't accept it. They find a way to wiggle out of what they know their problems are, or say someone caused them to be the way they are, not realizing that everything is cause and effect. You can't just isolate behavior and assign blame.
    I think we all do this to some degree -- it is a human temptation. And I don't even think it's an inherently bad thing, it's simply the "give and take" between the ego and the externalized world. To do ANYTHING in life, we have to develop a secure strong ego that believes in what it's doing; and naturally, the ego pushes back when challenged. A healthy ego is able to believe productively in itself and have ambitions, but be able to listen and integrate constructive criticism without outright rejecting it. What you describe is sort of the "ego gone wild" or wandering off-track.

    And when the ego feels undeveloped or weak, you end up more where I was at, where the ego is unduly impacted by external criticism and constantly hamstrings itself in trying to comply, never totally trusting its own values and strength.

    I remember I was when I was a teenager and I went with my parents to the grocery store. They got into an argument in the car before entering the store. When we got into the grocery store, my father asked my mother a question and she snapped at him and walked away. I was pushing the basket and my father turned to another man and said, "see how she treats me, all I did was ask her a simple question." The man nodded his agreement and started talking about his wife, blah blah blah.
    It just makes me ill when I see that sort of thing happen around me.

    I always think about this when people say they want to change or don't want to admit something's their fault. It's so easy to walk into a situation, see one thing and say well you're the cause of this. You have no knowledge of preceding events, why the person has become the way they are. It's like all this stuff gets swirled and entangled together, people say you did this and they're right, but you turn right back around and say, well you did this which is why I did what I did. When will this foolishness stop? When is someone going to be mature and say, you know, I can only be responsible for what I did.
    Well, I am a parent of three children... so... *groan* ... yes, this is the typical lecture that we give when we get the daily arguments of "But he said....!" and "But she did....!" It's a long process. And some people weren't forced to learn to do this as children, so now they have to learn it as adults... when they're no longer in submission to higher authority and HAVE to learn it.

    I'd think that if you really want to change, you'd start showing change, especially if you care for the other person. I'm not saying a complete 180 is less than 24 hrs, just some results of your desire to change, and acknowledgment of your faults would prompt some things to happen faster than others.
    True. I agree with both. One needs to have patience, because the process of change is long; one also needs to accept that "signs of good faith" are very helpful in terms of helping one change AND signaling other people that the change is in progress.

    (It reminds me a little of the Christian "Faith vs Deeds" debate.)

    Anyway, if I was in a situation like this, I would simply keep communicating daily so that I knew what the other person was thinking and committed to, and they would understand how I was perceiving things.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    It seems to me that people say they want honest criticism, but when they get it they don't accept it.
    This is something you will never hear me say unless it's about a writing project or other creative endeavor and even then, I don't always like it. I don't take criticism well at all and I know it. It rarely helps me and I probably won't change unless I figure it out on my own, anyway. Maybe there's a snowball's chance if it's someone I love and/or respect, but otherwise, it's just best if they keep their opinions to themselves.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #13
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't take criticism well at all and I know it. It rarely helps me and I probably won't change unless I figure it out on my own, anyway. Maybe there's a snowball's chance if it's someone I love and/or respect, but otherwise, it's just best if they keep their opinions to themselves.
    This is why I like IxxJs.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  4. #14
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    This is something you will never hear me say unless it's about a writing project or other creative endeavor and even then, I don't always like it. I don't take criticism well at all and I know it. It rarely helps me and I probably won't change unless I figure it out on my own, anyway. Maybe there's a snowball's chance if it's someone I love and/or respect, but otherwise, it's just best if they keep their opinions to themselves.
    Thanks for the honest answer, Cafe.

    People, (regardless of temperament) don't want to hear the truth about themselves. I don't think some mind if they're criticized about work or play, but when it comes down to interpersonal relationships, it is not wanted. Most people would rather continue as they are and not be asked to make any significant changes to themselves. I include myself in this lot.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  5. #15
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Truth is subjective. You have to weigh the "what's in it for them" factor as well.

    My best defense for this is to know myself as well as I can and to be open to considering that I don't have the whole view. Which I don't, since I'm "in here" and you're "out there." Trust me, "in here" is a lot more fun.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  6. #16
    Senior Member niffer's Avatar
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    It's easy for me to admit my faults to others, but a little harder for me to mull them over on my own.

    Most of them are flakey SP-like accountability problems. They're little things, but the fact that I piss people off makes my inner three-year-old want to give itself a time out.
    sparkly sparkly rainbow excretions

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
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    if you like my avatar, it's because i took it myself! : D

  7. #17
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't take criticism well at all and I know it. It rarely helps me and I probably won't change unless I figure it out on my own, anyway. Maybe there's a snowball's chance if it's someone I love and/or respect, but otherwise, it's just best if they keep their opinions to themselves.
    Seconded (and my compliments on your honesty ). I'm trying to get better though. I'd like to be able to deal with all criticism gracefully and to actually absorb the important stuff.

    Any INXJs out there who have overcome this problem want to recount how they did it?

  8. #18
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    Any INXJs out there who have overcome this problem want to recount how they did it?
    So I read this and think:
    1. Am I completely unaware of my inability to accept criticism?
    2. Am I an IxxJ?

    I majored in music. This involves daily one on one criticism for 16 years of my life. My primary mentor of 12 years was the closest thing i had to a father figure and our interaction was based solely on his critique of what i did. He wasn't gentle either, but he believed in my potential. A couple of times it pushed me to the point of tears, but i still love him for it. Couple of anecdotes:

    1. At one lesson with my very first composition teacher I brought in a fragment that I thought had a Native American feel to it. At the time I was very fond of that music. It was in the low register on the black keys. He literally cringed when he heard it and said no, that won't do. I felt like he hated it. I felt really dumb and disappointed that I could think something was special when it was actually crap. My stomach was tight as i walked to the bus stop, wondering if I really was a composer at all. I knew to be more careful about what I brought him next time. I did find the courage to try again, and that was a good feeling.

    2. One time my long term mentor (second professor) described my new flute quartet movement of having a similar quality to flat beer. My reaction? :sad: then i wondered if he understood how completely irrelevant flat beer is to me. I wondered if I had the ability to give it focus and meaning.

    3. Another time i brought in a poem i had written about the experience of my father which implied pain. I was to use it as the text for a new piece. He described to me why the poem was artistically a piece of crap. It was true, but I cried because I had wanted him to understand me and i had thought the poem was decent. At first i attempted to justify it in my mind, but alas it was crap and I then knew it. He then told me I would be better off collaborating with a poet of a similar level as me as a composer. I later thought about how he must have felt hurting my feelings, so the next lesson I made certain to mention how much I valued his input into helping me produce better work.

    4. I attended a master class with a composer from Julliard. There were about 10 of us. He said that we were to all listen to each work and describe "what" we heard without making any value judgments. He said very often composers hear more in their heads than they put down into the music. When it came my turn i presented my best work so far. The third movement was described as having harmonies that sounded like rather expected functional tonality with just a couple of notes thrown off. It wasn't a fresh or interesting sound. I heard it very differently. The last movement had an enormous crashing climax in which the strings in side the piano were strummed violently along with chord clusters on the keys. He pointed out it was completely unexpected and seeming irrelevant to the context of the piece. These were not subtle errors artistically. My face was beat red as I 'felt' humiliated but also realized that if someone hadn't told me, there I would be stuck in ignorance in my expression. I trusted his criticism, but felt the other students were enjoying it in a way that really hurt me. At my next lesson with my professor, he asked me my reaction to the master class. He said many students were dissappointed the guest composer was not more excited about their music. It never occurred to me for him to be excited. For crying out loud he's from Juilliard and his status quo is highly gifted students. I wished I could study with him for a time because of his fresh perspective and honesty with me. I feel trapped inside myself, as though I'm bigger inside, but with this dim interface to reality. I feel like i'm in a holding cell. When someone appears to step forward to help free me, I may eagerly approach the bars. They may sternly tell me to step back so they can work. It may hurt my feelings, but the larger context is my greatest hope. I'm so sick of feeling trapped. Anyone willing to help free me earns my deepest love and gratitude.

    There are probably thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of other anecdotes that are now lost to time, but carved out part of me.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #19
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    So I read this and think:
    1. Am I completely unaware of my inability to accept criticism?
    2. Am I an IxxJ?
    I didn't mean to imply that all INXJs have this problem. I'd just like to hear from INXJs who have had this problem and have overcome it.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Shimpei's Avatar
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    Criticism used to be like a stabbing through my heart. I used to be very sensitive and I used to feel utter shame and inadequacy. I even cried a lot.
    Later I switched to passive aggressiveness when I was criticized.
    Now, I'm more aware of my faults myself so I don't feel hurt when I'm criticized. I think the keys are awareness and openness to others (getting rid of self-righteousness), in order to be more cooperative when it comes to valid criticism.

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