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Thread: Intuitiveness

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    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    Default Intuitiveness

    Confession - I have been told that I have a very strong "Ne", and so perhaps my Intuition is strong or operating in top form, but I'm not really sure what this term means. So I have tried to pick up the meaning by context.

    I guess we should also look at "Ni", but I am not speaking of strictly Jungian or MBTI meanings here. The terms "intuitive" and "counter-intuitive" are used a lot in common parlance, and I sometimes wonder if I am the only one here who is unsure exactly what we as a society mean by this. In the lexicon of the vernacular, we will often hear about how things can be designed so as to be "more intuitive".

    I have a friend who designs web portals for big companies. The way they attempt to distinguish themselves from competitors is by emphasizing the "user friendliness" of their creations. So various studies have been done over time showing how people tend to want to use or see things, and this is taken into account more so than systems designed that presumably don't care too much about ease of use. ( By using the word "presumably" I don't mean that I have never encountered a system that is hard to use. )

    When we look at making things "easier to use" whose ease of use is being considered ? Would a person of one type find a system designed for another difficult ? There are probably some principles of design that apply to nearly all people, but it would be interesting to see those which are specific to type or other category.

    I'm often surprised, when trying to achieve some new thing on my computer, as to how many times I must specify that I want something done. I was trying to get some printer software set up one day and was having trouble. I don't remember all of the details, but it was a good thing that my tech friend was along to help me with some hurdles. I kept thinking that I had specified what I wanted to do, but was not getting a response. He showed me that I must indicate once more which printer I was referring to, and some other things that seemed "obvious" to me. I only have the one printer, for example, and so it hadn't occurred to me that I would have to specify which one I was referring to more than once. Sometimes it seems to me that the default mode should refer to simpler and more commonly desired actions. I assume that this is what is meant by "counter-intuitive".

    However, I will sometimes see people here referring to things as being "counter-intuitive" that I would not have known to classify as such.

    What relation does "intuitiveness" have with 'instinct" ?

    I told a friend that I was supposed to be intuitive based on my "N", and he asked me what that meant. I said "Well, it can refer to many things" which is always a safe answer. I continued, treading on thinner ice. "Intuitives are often thinking about the past or future intensely enough that they can be said to be 'living' there."

    "I've noticed hat you don't pay much attention to time, Kuranes" he said.

    "I pay attention to time when I'm focused on doing that, but I'm often not so focused" was my answer. "Intuitives also are good at recognizing patterns" I added.

    "So a Sensor, then, is somebody who lives more in the present moment" he said.

    "Yes", I answered. "That's my understanding of it. There's more to it than just these aspects" I added, in a tone of knowledgeable dismissal.
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

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    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Kuranes based on Myers-Briiggs, and Berens more specifically what you example in your friends designing and your inability to get the software to run correctly is Se. Keirsey uses words in his books that come close to one another with NT and SP types. Where Ne type users use intuition, Se type users use instinct. This is most exampled in ESTPs being able to get the gist of a situation where it looks as though they have taken in little and their patented statement when all else fells read the instructions. You appear to be alluding to Se, which is no surprise since Jung said that when he spoke to people claiming to prefer Ne, what they were describing to him was Se.

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    In everyday use I think intuition is using your five senses combined with your experience to understand what you are are perceiving. The speed of recognition is unconcious so seems to come from nowhere. To recognise a correct pattern and an incorrect one.

    Counter-intuitive means the solution is opposite to what you would imagine from common knowledge.
    For example to lose weight eat more. More good food that is.

    Instinct is inborn. Intuition is developed.

    Intuition is an interesting subject. Check out Gary Kleins work some day.

    Amazon.com Review
    Gary Klein studies decision-making in the field, tagging along with firefighters, standing by in intensive-care units, and watching chess masters play lightning-fast "blitz" games to learn how people make choices with time constraints, limited information, and changing goals. From this research, he and his associates have developed a theory of "naturalistic decision-making."

    Sources of Power essentially lends the validity of scientific research to techniques that many of us use every day. There's intuition, which is based not on instantaneous insight but on the rapid (perhaps even subconscious) interpretation of perceptual cues.

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    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    Counter-intuitive means the solution is opposite to what you would imagine from common knowledge.
    For example to lose weight eat more. More good food that is.
    I'd sorta gotten that far with understanding what CI meant, by context, but I see people talking about what would be CI re: ( for example ) socio-economics, and it is not always clear to me how those POV's were arrived at.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    Instinct is inborn.
    How ?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    Intuition is developed.
    When I had heard the phrase "women's intuition" in the past, I almost thought it was meant to suggest an "inborn" talent.

    So intuitiveness has to do with using incrementally collected "knowledge" of the world to make ever increasing sense of patterns - so as to "recognize" more meaning in them. I wonder if it is using "logic" as much as it is "re-framing", due to seeking an ever bigger overview of a "mapped situation" or factors "ecology" ( in the broader sense of meaning for that last word. ) When using intuition on people questions versus other kinds of phenomena, would Feelers have an advantage when it comes to accessing the information quickly ?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    Intuition is an interesting subject. Check out Gary Kleins work some day.
    OK, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    Amazon.com Review
    Gary Klein studies decision-making in the field, tagging along with firefighters, standing by in intensive-care units, and watching chess masters play lightning-fast "blitz" games to learn how people make choices with time constraints, limited information, and changing goals. From this research, he and his associates have developed a theory of "naturalistic decision-making."
    This seems like it might be a good read. I was just thinking of "speed chess" in the thread on "What Kind of TV Show Would you have ?", when it comes to people who are competently glib having an advantage in live debates.

    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Where Ne type users use intuition, Se type users use instinct. This is most exampled in ESTPs being able to get the gist of a situation where it looks as though they have taken in little and their patented statement when all else fells read the instructions. You appear to be alluding to Se, which is no surprise since Jung said that when he spoke to people claiming to prefer Ne, what they were describing to him was Se.
    So is "instinct" the Sensor equivalent of Intuition ? I wonder how it is accumulated or transmitted between generations ?
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

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    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    In everyday use I think intuition is using your five senses combined with your experience to understand what you are are perceiving. The speed of recognition is unconcious so seems to come from nowhere. To recognise a correct pattern and an incorrect one.
    That in my understanding is a great connotation of instinct which is used by Se types. The five senses, the experience, etc. The more experience you acquire the greater ease of using instinct which seems like you are taking in little, but you are reacting to past experiences. Granted Ne could do the same without the use of the five senses, however Ni does not require any experience and is our sixth sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuranes View Post
    So is "instinct" the Sensor equivalent of Intuition ? I wonder how it is accumulated or transmitted between generations?
    From all I understand about type yes, Se types (not Si) use instinct along with Ti and Ne to a point. What we understand as intuition is what Ni types use. It has no bearing on the five senses, but comes from the sixth sense. Instincts get easier for perceiving types, over time and as they gain experience. I think Lenore Thomson gives good examples in her book when referring to a baseball player stealing a base using their Ti.

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    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    Can you expand on what you mean by the "sixth sense" ?
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    .... I think Lenore Thomson gives good examples in her book when referring to a baseball player stealing a base using their Ti.
    I thought that was an excellent description, with Ti operating in real-time and adjusting systematically to everything occurring in the moment.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I thought that was an excellent description, with Ti operating in real-time and adjusting systematically to everything occurring in the moment.
    Would you connote that as using instinct as oppose to intuition (Ni) as we understand it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kuranes View Post
    Can you expand on what you mean by the "sixth sense" ?
    sixth sense
    noun a power of perception beyond the five senses; intuition: His sixth sense warned him to be cautious.
    Based on the example given in this definition, one using instinct would have instantly taken in the immediate environment (ie, the roads are icy) and analyzed with their introverted judging function that they need to be cautious of accidents only to notice an accident miles down the road. Intuition may not even consider the icy road or connect the consequences however something comes over the person that says be cautious, so they do only to notice an accident down the road. The trick is did you instantly take in and analyze the probable consequences using IJ/EP or was this a sixth sense phenomenon using IP/EJ? The action is so fast and subtle, you may not know in real time. However some examples given when discussing Ni is when you feel compelled to call a relative that you have not spoken to for a long time and find that they were just in an accident.

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