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Argue:ments

LightSun

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What is the best way to communicate in an argument? Why is it useless to argue and if you are an arguer, why is that so?


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“I’ve had a few arguments with people, but I never carry a grudge. You know why? While you’re carrying a grudge, they’re out dancing.” Buddy Hackett



Quote

"The great charm in argument is really finding one's own opinions, not other people." Evelyn Waugh
 

Merced

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Understand that everyone is human and that you are capable of being wrong. If you think you know it all, it's a sign of knowing nothing. Communication is a two way street. You have to listen just as much as you speak.

Avoid absolutes like "never", "always", and "all". Absolutes rarely exist in life. Especially if you are talking politics, bundling everyone in a group will only cause more issue. Using phrases like "most" and "few" are generally more accurate and less jarring.

Use I statements. They seem silly but they really do add an automatic layer of civility. Instead of saying "You don't seem very smart", you could say "I don't think you are being very smart". A big part of I statements is explaining how a person's actions affect you while avoiding making any statements about someone else and their character. You can google I statements to learn more, which I encourage. They are useful for all conversation.

Acknowledge what logic fallacies are. If you can identify them, then you can avoid using them. The use of a logical fallacy doesn't invalidate an argument, just they way it's communicated.

Have a reason. No matter what, be able to answer the question "Why are you arguing for that side?" If you can't pinpoint that, you should probably step away to think about your position.
 

Yama

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I try not to get into arguments in the first place.
 

magpie

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The best way to communicate is not in an argument. If you've somehow managed to fail at communication enough to land in the argument stage, may as well just enjoy. :shrug:
 

Forever

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Definition of argument by Oxford Dictionary:

An exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one.
‘I've had an argument with my father’
‘heated arguments over public spending’

2
A reason or set of reasons given in support of an idea, action or theory.
‘there is a strong argument for submitting a formal appeal’
with clause ‘he rejected the argument that keeping the facility would be costly’

I would say in this discussion, lots of people would imply the first definition was being used.

Growing up, my grandpas would argue with his neighbors but not necessarily by the 1st definition but by th 2nd. He gained new friends that way and could sit down or walk and talk with someone about it. Such conversations would usually mean if it were a learning experience a bit of knowledge would be required. My grandpa having traveled to several countries and different languages and having a ph.D would mean he certainly wouldn’t be short on words.

So learning to see arguments as a way to learn about someone and maybe a bit of self awareness to how you reason to things can may give you the patience when someone does argue by definition 1, you can restrain yourself and instead interpret as definition 2.

If it’s practical matters, it’s hard to go outside of definition 1.
In that way just sometimes let them win. People like those who can stop arguing and still be friendly. It’s not always a rap battle where people are like what? Oh snap! Haha
 

Norrsken

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Arguments prevent growth in a relationship. It is always good to remember this the next time you speak to that other person and think you can "win" the next conversation to your favor. A good conversation, one that everyone has a chance to talk and not feel like anything they'll say will be slammed back on their faces, is a conversation worth having if you want to salvage the relationship. And if it comes down to the fact that you are trying to keep the communication lines open and the other person just takes cheap shots at you, or abuse you in any way, at least you'll know the truth about the nature of the partnership. Some things aren't worth saving.
 

Fluffywolf

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I love to argue, it is my most intimate form of communication. If I argue with you, I like you. I don't argue to win. I don't argue to upset you. I argue to reach new intellectual heights and insights. If I argue with you, I value your input greatly and believe you to be worthy of my attention.

But never angrily or heatedly. If I am in a bad place in which most people would argue, I would passive aggressively disengage or ignore instead. I think I've a good handle on this though, unlike in my teens/early twenties.

So the idea that people often link argueing to something disrputive and bad, doesn't hold true for everyone.

I must say though, if I argue with someone, you can probably read my optimistic and positive vibes that come with it. If you're lucky, you might even witness a hint of the boiling passion that exists deep within me.
People don't often see my argueing as something bad, unless they are busy with something else and find any and all attention disruptive. But I'd back off before that becomes an issue.
 

LightSun

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"Be true to the path you tread. If two intelligent beings meet both can learn. One can tell if another is uselessly in an argumentative manner spreading their own negative projections. It is a reflection of their unhealed soul or psyche and then their is no reaching them. They are on a different journey with different lessons to learn. Stick to your path and find kindred souls so both get renewal. To take the lower road of senslessly arguing with aniother being is held in thrall by a. illusion, b. false ego, c. unresolved issue plus their d. blind spot. Arguinbg s not true communication and is emotionally plus spiritually immature.

When one meets a fellow who is being disagreeable it is a test of your character to rise to the occasion and remain true to your principles. It is a crossroads choice and opportunity to take the high road in order for one's growth. "Arguing in essence, especially about belief is a useless expenditure of time and life force. You will not change one iota of another's point of view and neither will they to you. It's an endless monkey chasing it's tail. Instead accept each others differences, learn to communicate and honor diversity with working together.

Arguing is simply metaphorically bashing your own head into a wall. Both parties are bashing their head into a wall till blood starts streaming, but neither is lstening to the other's point of view and no true communication is taking pace. Both are uselessly bashing their heads upon different walls, one is at the North wall and the other the South wall. Nothing is accomplished for there was no true bridge to understand and connect with the other person's reality.

I don't argue for to me getting angry is immature and showing a lack of communication skill. It shows a lack of copies skills when it comes to addressing adversity. I will state my position but it takes two people to argue. I for one will not engage but walk away. I will maintain my boundaries, state my position and remain true to myself and my path."
 

LightSun

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Rewrite and reedited

"People live in different perceptual realities and live by different truths. Obviously not everyone can be right. In fact no one is totally right. This is why we fight instead of listening to each other and both honoring and respecting other people's truths. Listen to their element of truth, reflect, have an attitude of mutual problem solving, and correcting the unreasonableness from our side as well as their own. I will maintain my boundaries, state my position and remain true to myself and my path. I for one will not engage with a person who is clearly set on maintaining their position but is closed off to listen to another point of view.

I don't argue for to me getting angry is immature and shows a lack in communication skill. It shows a lack of coping skills when it comes to addressing adversity. I simply walk away from such a situation. It takes two people to be in a conversation and both can learn from the experience. Coming from a position of keeping an open mind, using listening skills and having mutual respect one can develop synergy and both parties benefit. When two or more meet in open fellowship synergy and growth may occur. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Conversely it also require two people to argue. If the other party is not practicing active listening skills and coming from an emotionally laden use of negative subjectivity then they are not open to open rational dialogue.

They are set in their ways and trying to prove themselves right irrespective of what I am trying to communicate or convey. In an argument the parties involved unknown to themselves aren't listening nor are they communicating. One can tell if another is uselessly communicating in an argumentative manner and merely spreading their own negative projections. When I realize the other is repeating themselves over and over trying to make the same point all the while getting hotter and hotter under the collar is when I realize they are not listening and reflecting. They are not practicing active listening skills. They hear me but do not process what it is I'm saying because they are not actively listening to the message. They are so set in making their own point that they are not taking my own input and feedback into consideration. Moreover they are talking at me and not communicating with me.

It is a reflection of their unhealed soul or psyche and then their is no reaching them. They are on a different journey with different lessons to learn. Stick to your path and find kindred souls so both get renewal. Taking the lower road senselessly arguing with another person who is held in thrall to such factors as A. illusion, B. ego, C. their own unresolved issues plus d. a blind spot is unproductive and insensible. Arguing is not true communication and is emotionally plus spiritually immature. When one meets a fellow who is being disagreeable it is a test of your character to rise to the occasion and remain true to your principles. It is a crossroads choice and an opportunity to take the higher road by stating your position yet not argue or belabor the point.

Arguing in essence, especially about belief is a useless expenditure of time and life force. You will not change one iota another's point of view and neither will they change your position. The only way true debate is productive and a learning opportunity is if both parties hold to discourse using reason and sticking to objective facts to solidify their position. Arguing is simply metaphorically bashing your own head into a wall. Both parties are bashing their head into a wall till blood starts streaming, but neither is listening to the other's point of view and no true communication is taking pace. Both are uselessly bashing their heads upon different walls, one is at the North wall and the other the South wall.

Both are merely repeating, not listening and no true communication is in place. In an argument you have two irrationally minded individuals projecting their reality, repeating over and over their position without listening to the others viewpoint. In this type of situation further discourse is pouring gasoline unto the fire. Nothing is accomplished for there was no true bridge of communication established to understand and connect with the other person's reality."
 

LightSun

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Understand that everyone is human and that you are capable of being wrong. If you think you know it all, it's a sign of knowing nothing. Communication is a two way street. You have to listen just as much as you speak.

Avoid absolutes like "never", "always", and "all". Absolutes rarely exist in life. Especially if you are talking politics, bundling everyone in a group will only cause more issue. Using phrases like "most" and "few" are generally more accurate and less jarring.

Use I statements. They seem silly but they really do add an automatic layer of civility. Instead of saying "You don't seem very smart", you could say "I don't think you are being very smart". A big part of I statements is explaining how a person's actions affect you while avoiding making any statements about someone else and their character. You can google I statements to learn more, which I encourage. They are useful for all conversation.

Acknowledge what logic fallacies are. If you can identify them, then you can avoid using them. The use of a logical fallacy doesn't invalidate an argument, just they way it's communicated.

Have a reason. No matter what, be able to answer the question "Why are you arguing for that side?" If you can't pinpoint that, you should probably step away to think about your position.

Merced wrote (1) "Understand...everyone...human...you are capable of being wrong."

As apart of my growth process I share what I think, feel and believe in open dialogue in a rational manner. You are correct that we are all fallible. We all as human beings have what are called blind spots of awareness. In addition what we think of reality is only our perception and it is limited. Communicating in a two way conversation with other people in an open manner with mutual respect exposes a person to new ideas and concepts. These new ideas are then processed and assimilated, discounted or put on the shelf for future contemplation.

(2) "If you think you know it all, it's a sign of knowing nothing."

Excellent point. No one knows the entire truth or understands or can even perceive reality in its totality. Socrates once exclaimed that the beginning of wisdom is that I realize I know nothing. In addition when on a path of personal growth and trying to actualize one's potential is a concept that we have to unlearn much of what we believe in and has been taught to us. Most of what we feel, think and believe even passionately to be true is mere opinion or a set of beliefs we have assimilated.

These beliefs are then held unto even in the face of evidence pointing to the contrary. Our beliefs are ingrained and have a life of their own. They are unconsciously protected by defense mechanisms in the form of cognitive distortions such as rationalization, denial and emotional reasoning.

(3) "Communication is a two way street. You have to listen just as much as you speak."

Merced I concur. There is a difference between hearing and active listening. If one is in a dogmatic and closed minded position they then are resistant to be receptive to the other persons message. They are spending to much time figuring out what they are going to say next. When in an active listening mode on the other hand one listens and reflects internally. If one is good at communication skills a person may to harbor harmony reflect the others message back to them so as to prove they have both heard and understood the other persons message. Finally there is the adage of we have two ears and one mouth therefore we should listen twice as much speak. When we are talking we are only telling what we already know. When actively listening one may garner new nuggets of wisdom and insights and thus learn and grow.

(4) "Avoid absolutes..."never", "always"..."all".

I come from a psychology field. You just identified the cognitive distortion of all or nothing thinking. It is a cognitive fallacy. Human beings posses a polarity of beliefs. There are Democrats liberals and Republican conservatives. Each feels plus thinks their way of thinking is the correct choice. They passionately believe their world view is the correct and right view to have. To hold unto such a belief one tends to demonize the opposing position and viewpoint. What is worse they battle over ideological differences. What's more one closes off their mind to even entertain the others viewpoint and valid points.

When they argue coming from an emotional and subjective stance they fall prey to emotional reasoning. I think or feel it to be true hence it is true. This is a fallacy of human reasoning. The truth is that a closer approximation of the correct stance lies somewhere in the middle. This can only be achieved and arrived at by mutual open dialogue. There is a caveat and that is both parties should rather stick to objective facts. What is also paramount is that both parties enter into dialogue with an open minded tolerance together with shown respect.

(5) "Use I statements." and "...layer of civility."

I was taught to use I feel and I think statements. When making a case one takes personal ownership by using I statements. One is less likely to generalize or use attack driven labeling statements. I wonder where you learned these techniques. It is professional.

(6) "...I statements is explaining how a person's actions affect you...avoiding making any statements about someone else and their character."

Using such statements beginning with I takes on personal ownership. What is more one safely stays out of the territory of attacking or castigating your opponent in a personal attack on their character. One who does not utilize these simple rules of debate style conduct can fall prey to character assassination. This is called labeling and is one of the ten cognitive distortions that beclouds a persons reasoning ability.

(7) "...logic fallacies...If you can identify them, then you can avoid using them."

I wholeheartedly am in agreement. Carl Jung said to make the unconscious conscious. That is precisely what CBT (Cognitive Behavior Therapy) with REBT (Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy) offer. One has an initial automatic thought. One then goes about weeding out any used cognitive distortions and replaces the distorted reason with a more realistic, fair plus balanced statement. It in some ways holds parallel to the practice of Buddhist mindfulness. By understanding our inner thought process we can then become more aware. With this awareness comes increased wisdom and better choice making. One can then be more free of using fallacies of thought in their thought process, speech and writings.

(8) "...just they way it's communicated."

By falling prey to cognitive distortions one's message is distorted. What's more it is less likely to be received in a favorable light. Part of communicating is conveying your position and influencing others to your line of reasoning. By communicating in a rational manner this is more likely to occur. In addition there will be less confusion along with less needless emotional turmoil and interpersonal conflict. All of this happened needlessly because you did not communicate your message in a rational vein. You instead communicated using cognitive fallacies of thought and using emotionally laden subjective statements that only inflame the opposition. Very impressed on the whole with your response.
 

LightSun

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Arguments prevent growth in a relationship. It is always good to remember this the next time you speak to that other person and think you can "win" the next conversation to your favor. A good conversation, one that everyone has a chance to talk and not feel like anything they'll say will be slammed back on their faces, is a conversation worth having if you want to salvage the relationship. And if it comes down to the fact that you are trying to keep the communication lines open and the other person just takes cheap shots at you, or abuse you in any way, at least you'll know the truth about the nature of the partnership. Some things aren't worth saving.

Pluvio wrote, (1) "Arguments prevent growth in a relationship."

It takes two people to engage in an argument. Neither party is acting rationally. In such a scenario when two people are engaged in an argument both parties are not listening to the other party. They are to focused on their own message they wish to convey. This interferes with their concentration and paying attention to the context of the other party's message. Both parties are focused on being right instead of mutually engaged in true communication and understanding the other persons position. They are talking at one another instead of being in a dialogue with the other person.

(2) "...conversation, one that everyone has a chance to talk..."

The five secrets of effective communication involves the following elements. True communication involves active listening skills along with trying to convey your message.

I. Listening skills involve these elements.

A. The disarming technique: You find some truth in what the other person is saying. I have a saying that everyone may see an element or angle of the truth. This is true unless the message is filled with cognitive distortions.

B. There is both thought empathy and feeling empathy used in communicating.

B1. Thought empathy: You paraphrase the other person's words. This shows that you are actively listening. It opens a bridge of communication and understanding. What is more you are validating some part of the other person's message and thus validating the individual.

B2. Feeling empathy: You acknowledge how the other person is probably feeling. This involves getting out of your self. It also means entering the other person's phenomenological inner universe and putting yourself in his or her shoes.

C. Inquiry: You ask gentle, non-judgmental probing questions to learn more about what the other person is thinking and feeling. In order to understand the other party as well follow along with their reasoning seek to ask probing questions for clarification. It serves also to see if you are on the right track in your understanding.

II. Self-expression skills involve these elements.

D. Use "I feel" statements (such as "I feel upset") rather than "you" statements (such as "you're wrong") or "you're making me furious"). In this way you take personal ownership and responsibility for your own emotions. You are not seeking to blame. When you use "you" statements you are in an attacking mode. This only causes division and is a barrier to communication. It is a stumbling block.

E. Stroking: If you find something genuinely positive to say to the other person, even in an argument. You convey an attitude of shown respect, even though you may feel very angry with the other person. This involves getting outside one's ego. One must have a strong foundation of self as well knowing who you are. If you are holding unto dogmatic beliefs, closed minded and not willing to use reason then you will shut yourself off from understanding others and their viewpoints. What's more you will have closed yourself off from further learning new concepts and ideas. This is not knowing your true self but rather having a false ego. This kind of ego can be easily triggered. If triggered you are that much less likely to process the information imparted to you or understanding it.

(3) "...to keep the communication lines open and the other person just takes cheap shots at you, or abuse... "

In such a scenario the other person is acting irrationally and not using reason. It is best to realize this and walk away for further dialogue is fruitless.
 

Nomendei

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When I’m about to lose an argument, I simply take out my flamethrower. They always end to agree with me, what a coincidence.
No, now seriously, I think I like to argue because it is funny. I love to torment others and push them in their last retreats. Honestly, I am a bit drunk right now, so the second part of this text may be messed up. But I’ll give a try. Maybe it is my narcissistic side that wants to show to others that I am smarter than them, or it could also be because I want to make others like my parents proud by showing how quick-witted I am. Or maybe both. I never truly get mad, so going into an argument is just me being annoying with others, just for the sake of fun.
 

Neal Caffreynated

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I don't like to get into arguments but when it happens I have several ways to get out of this: I get sarcastic/tell a joke (which often works well bc it lighten up the mood), I try to calm things down like by changing the conversation topic or I get people to agree with me bc I'm good at persuading people :D

But in any case I never lose my cool :smoke:
 

Yuurei

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I see it is a "Biggest loser" situation. The winner is whomever considers their time and energy so valueless that the they will waste it on something as pointless as bickering over shit that-the vast majority of the time-Just. Doesn't. Matter.
And, let's be honest, we all know that-the vast majority of the time- the other person is not listening to you, nor you them, and are just waiting for them to pause for a second so you can get in some snippy one-liner most likely based fallacy.

Personally, I make my point, maybe extrapolate some if I need to and then leave the conversation.
A lot of people will say "Oh but then I win cuz I got the last word!" and my response to that is; " Sure; you win. Here's your gold star. Go parade it around ..over there...somewhere...away from me."
 

LightSun

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'It Takes Two to Argue'

"Arguing is simply metaphorically bashing your own head into a wall. Both parties are bashing their head into a wall till blood starts streaming, but neither is listening to the other's point of view and no true communication is taking pace. Both are uselessly bashing their heads upon different walls, one is at the North wall and the other the South wall. Both are merely repeating, not listening and no true communication is in place. They unknown to themselves and each other aren't listening nor are they communicating.

In an argument you have two irrationally minded individuals projecting their reality, repeating over and over their position without listening to the others viewpoint. In this type of situation no further discourse is possible. The arguing parties are lost in the illusion of ego, fear, projection and rigid and dogmatic thought. They are not flexible. Nothing gets learned and zero healing growth will occur. All of the angry words are akin to pouring gasoline unto the fire. Nothing is accomplished for there was no true bridge of communication established to understand and connect with the other person's reality."

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." Aristotle

"Let go of your attachment to being right, and suddenly your mind is more open. You're able to benefit from the unique viewpoints of others, without being crippled by your own judgment."~ Ralph Marston

"The great charm in argument is really finding one's own opinions, not other people." Evelyn Waugh
 

Coriolis

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'It Takes Two to Argue'

"Arguing is simply metaphorically bashing your own head into a wall. Both parties are bashing their head into a wall till blood starts streaming, but neither is listening to the other's point of view and no true communication is taking pace. Both are uselessly bashing their heads upon different walls, one is at the North wall and the other the South wall. Both are merely repeating, not listening and no true communication is in place. They unknown to themselves and each other aren't listening nor are they communicating.

In an argument you have two irrationally minded individuals projecting their reality, repeating over and over their position without listening to the others viewpoint. In this type of situation no further discourse is possible. The arguing parties are lost in the illusion of ego, fear, projection and rigid and dogmatic thought. They are not flexible. Nothing gets learned and zero healing growth will occur.
I don't agree with this characterization. We speak of lawyers arguing their cases in court, or that a coworker made a convincing argument to the boss of why a certain policy should be changed. What you describe above seems to be unproductive argument: arguing for the sake of it, and not to persuade someone to real action, or to present the merits of one's case as best one can.

I see this as not unrelated to conflict. Some people are very conflict averse, and will respond to conflict with coping mechanisms that are counterproductive (avoidance, compliance, passive/aggressive responses). But conflict is often necessary for growth and progress. Working through it can improve one's understanding, of both the other person's point of view and your own. This happens best when one remains respectful and actually engages with what the other person is saying, rather than simply dismissing it or shooting it down.
 

LightSun

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I don't agree with this characterization. We speak of lawyers arguing their cases in court, or that a coworker made a convincing argument to the boss of why a certain policy should be changed. What you describe above seems to be unproductive argument: arguing for the sake of it, and not to persuade someone to real action, or to present the merits of one's case as best one can.

I see this as not unrelated to conflict. Some people are very conflict averse, and will respond to conflict with coping mechanisms that are counterproductive (avoidance, compliance, passive/aggressive responses). But conflict is often necessary for growth and progress. Working through it can improve one's understanding, of both the other person's point of view and your own. This happens best when one remains respectful and actually engages with what the other person is saying, rather than simply dismissing it or shooting it down.


Coriolis wrote, (1) "...speak of lawyers arguing their cases in court...coworker made a convincing argument...boss ...why a certain policy should be changed."


I'm using the term arguing where no clearly defined point is being made. It is not cogent or coherent. What you describe is by all means conducive to bringing about change. In this sense I concur with you. I would semantically choose words as problem solving and critical thinking to describe what your definition is.

(2) "...you describe above seems ...be unproductive argument: arguing for the sake of it, and not to persuade someone to real action, or to present the merits of one's case as best one can."


Exactly, I'm using the term arguing where no clearly defined point is being made. It is not cogent or coherent. The person can possibly be too dogmatic and rigid. In addition they are not using critical reasoning. Rather their arguement is laden with a host of cognitive fallacies and use of subjective statements not grounded in reason.

(3) "I see this as not unrelated to conflict. Some people are very conflict averse, and will respond to conflict with coping mechanisms that are counterproductive (avoidance, compliance, passive/aggressive responses)."

(4) "...conflict is often necessary for growth and progress. Working through it can improve one's understanding, of both the other person's point of view and your own. This happens best when one remains respectful and actually engages with what the other person is saying, rather than simply dismissing it or shooting it down."

All you have articulated I agree with. The only impasse is I define arguing as nonsensical and argumentative. The party is not using active listening skills. In an argumentative stance one is preoccupied with making their own point. They are talking 'At' you and not with you in mutual dialogue. In progressing through life with experiential lessons learned and the use of insight I seek to grow in depth and breadth. To me a way of achieving this is to articulate what I think, feel and believe. I state my position.

If the other party is amiable to dialogue with reason, open mindedness and respect then a meeting of the minds may progress. If however I see the other party is coming from an irrational argumentative stance, I disengage. No true communication is occurring. Because we all have variant views and beliefs a common ground of understanding must occur. As stated using reason, being open minded and showing respect. It is only from such a base that communication and conflict resolution may occur.
 

Coriolis

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All you have articulated I agree with. The only impasse is I define arguing as nonsensical and argumentative. The party is not using active listening skills. In an argumentative stance one is preoccupied with making their own point. They are talking 'At' you and not with you in mutual dialogue. In progressing through life with experiential lessons learned and the use of insight I seek to grow in depth and breadth. To me a way of achieving this is to articulate what I think, feel and believe. I state my position.
This is a good illustration of a significant part of the problem: people in a discussion (argument) misunderstanding each other because they are using words to mean different things. The definition that you are using here is not the standard definition of arguing. It is a subset or more specific definition. Unless you specify that, someone will take issue with what they think you are saying rather than what you really are saying. This won't make sense to you, so you might object, and so forth. That's why it always pays to define terms, especially when you are not using the standard usages, or when you feel you might be misunderstood (e.g. non-native speakers in the audience).
 
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