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Where does sense of identity come from?

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
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I've been thinking about this a lot lately, especially in conjunction with the young people in my life.

I used to think identity came from the social roles we play in our connection to other people, the job we do, and the skills we have, and I think they contribute, but they are not powerful enough in themselves to offer a sense of who we really are fundamentally.

Personality is a component of identity, but people can even over identify with their personality type, at the expense of being the individual they are.

At a course this summer, it talked about certain kinds of play allowing us as children to try different personas, professions, ways of relating on for size and teaching us what doesn't change, or what remains constant though it all.

I think accepting or reconciling our looks, name, age, gender, parentage, ethnicity, nationality, are a part of gaining a firm sense of identity, but even they don't make up the core of who we are even though they contribute to it it and are not easy to change.

I believe small children rely solely on the adults or older people in their lives to borrow their identity from, and when they are very young, have little more than their age, and their sex to define who they are. Hence boasting about how strong their dad is compared to the next kids', or how much money their family has etc. Kids always seem to need to sort out the hierarchy of who is best all the way down to worst at something so they can figure out where they fit in.

While I think our life events have a profound influence on us, I don't think they have to define us completely. Same with our possessions, education, or earning power.

Teenagers looking to find a sense of identity often use music or clothing, or makeup, hobbies or friend groups to gain a superficial sense of who they are, but it is mostly circumstantial or something that can easily be changed.

What do you think it is that truly captures the essence of who we are at our core, and what defines the way we see ourselves?
 

Lark

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I think identity is one of about eight or so basic human needs, the essence, which more often than not is pretty far removed from our existence.

Existence is usually determined by social character and the social unconscious, both of which are determined by the need of society to reproduce itself on generation on a next with the minimum of friction or conflict and coercion, get people to do what they have to do by motivating them and getting them to want to do it rather than simply need to do it.

The thing about this is that I think from at least as long ago as the industrial revolution and rise of capitalism existence has diverged from essence, for most people, maybe not a select few who're unimaginably wealthy, although they have their own problems and I'd expect social character and social unconscious have something to do with that too.

Identity if it corresponds more to essence than existence is probably a good thing, but I cant help but think that with everything else being atrophied that it would be likewise somehow, I identified with different things growing up that I would not now, subcultures which were not even corresponding to my own society, immediate society that is, like, for instance, I had an obsession with the US militia movements, survivalists and US gun culture when I was younger, or at least what I could find out about them when the internet was in its infancy and people were more reliant upon the broadcast media, gaming culture too, which I've got to say has changed beyond anything at all which I would recognise, though more and more of what I recognise or have any attachment too is rebranded retro, retromania or classic and old skool by the day. Which I think is just getting old.
 

Madboot

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I think as we mature into adulthood that introspection has a role in this. Those who don't practice introspection often have a hard time defining themselves without reference to other people and/or groups. And I do agree that all are affected by our social environment. But introspective people have spent more time examining how they feel and think about all the situations that life throws at them. And just to be clear, I do not think introspection is solely in the domain of introverts. It is completely different. I have known extroverted people who are also introspective and have strong sense of identity. And I've known many of both types that avoid introspection like the plague, as that metaphorical mirror often shows flaws we would rather not admit to.
 

Lark

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I think as we mature into adulthood that introspection has a role in this. Those who don't practice introspection often have a hard time defining themselves without reference to other people and/or groups. And I do agree that all are affected by our social environment. But introspective people have spent more time examining how they feel and think about all the situations that life throws at them. And just to be clear, I do not think introspection is solely in the domain of introverts. It is completely different. I have known extroverted people who are also introspective and have strong sense of identity. And I've known many of both types that avoid introspection like the plague, as that metaphorical mirror often shows flaws we would rather not admit to.

I definitely agree with that, defining yourself by more than or other than your immediate relationships and membership of groups was a process that I definitely experienced myself in my later teens and early twenties, I think it possibly went on until my mid twenties even, I say that because its not something that I really agonise about so much anymore and I remember that for a time I did, it really bothered me if the self-appointed arbiters of identity said that I was or was not able to identify in one way or another.

Besides all the musings in my last post, on broadly sociological lines, I always like to think about a question posed by Erich Fromm in his discussion about the difference between having and being modes of existence, if someone is only what they have and you take it away then what are they? Its made me think about how I could develop my self as opposed to simply owning things, although I'm not puritanical about things, sometimes possession are prized for associations I'd consider legitimate enough (if its not taken to extremes like their being valued more than your life or that of others).
 

Polaris

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I think that a sense of your character comes from the interplay of your own judgments and judgments exterior to you. If you feel you are a good person, for example, it is because there is a viewpoint outside of you that regards you as a good person, and whose judgment you consider to be sound. It is a mix of identifying a claim about who you are and determining whether that claim is true or not. When you judge that the claim is true, it is because you are being that kind of person--you are engaged in the activity of presenting that particular character (which only requires a simple recognition of what being that character entails). When you're doing something, you're always making a choice, so it is our choices, specifically our choices of who to be, that make us who we are. Not even the body is an exception to this, since a person freely chooses whether or not to identify with their body.
 

ceecee

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I think as we mature into adulthood that introspection has a role in this. Those who don't practice introspection often have a hard time defining themselves without reference to other people and/or groups. And I do agree that all are affected by our social environment. But introspective people have spent more time examining how they feel and think about all the situations that life throws at them. And just to be clear, I do not think introspection is solely in the domain of introverts. It is completely different. I have known extroverted people who are also introspective and have strong sense of identity. And I've known many of both types that avoid introspection like the plague, as that metaphorical mirror often shows flaws we would rather not admit to.

Introspection is not just for introverts, I agree. I would hope adults would have and use introspection but it's definitely not a given for all of them. As far as identity, it's always adjusting and readjusting through life. Social environment plays a role, what we're attracted to plays a role, the choices we make for ourself and others plays a role. But in all honesty, some people just need to go outfuckingside for awhile and maybe talk to someone new.
 

Yama

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It comes from all over the place. Little chunks all come from different areas and come together to form your identity. Part of my identity is my social role. Part of it is internal and self-decided. Part of my identity comes from what I value. Part of my identity comes from where I've been / the past. There are many places these chunks of identity come from. When they come together, they create a unique individual. Some people place more importance or value on certain parts of their identity melting pot than others. Some people might even be blind to certain chunks of them altogether, and claim that their identity only comes from one place (ie; saying that their identity comes only from within, or only from their values, etc). It's basically kind of like a more complicated nature and nurture thing. Both play a role in forming an identity.
 

Madboot

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Introspection is not just for introverts, I agree. I would hope adults would have and use introspection but it's definitely not a given for all of them. As far as identity, it's always adjusting and readjusting through life. Social environment plays a role, what we're attracted to plays a role, the choices we make for ourself and others plays a role. But in all honesty, some people just need to go outfuckingside for awhile and maybe talk to someone new.

Absolutely. Introspection only really works once you have some kind of life experience. As reclusive as I can be, I still go out and experience the world. Unlike most of my family, I have been outside the United States, and have moved away from the two counties my family has lived in for the past 200 years. I also a much stronger sense of myself and my individuality than they do. I love them, but self reflection is not their strong suit. Rationalization and blaming outsiders are their preferred method of dealing with the world. Sorry if this seems rant-like, but I see much untapped potential in some of my numerous relations that they could harness so much more if they would get out of their tiny little corner of a county and see the world about them. Perspective matters.
 

Paisley

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Sense of identity comes from the loss of identity all people now experience because of the fall of man and our separation from God, when we were never meant to live apart from God and never meant to question our identity in God and who we actually are. It's our very nature to desire identity but the question really becomes, why, rather than with what? All of you have given answers based on with what or experience, but I truly believe that our desire for identity and struggle with our sense of identity comes from the fact that we were never meant to question our identity in the first place. Identity speaks to its lack, what I believe is now regained in Christ. I also believe mbti is a remnant of the fall more than our true identity, like a concessionary imprint, that lacks the fullness of who we truly are, and could be in Christ. Also, when I say in Christ, I mean that the identity we originally had and lost, was all within a love relationship and a perpetual giving between God and man, that never needed to ask the question, and not in some sort of religious institutionalization but in a loving relationship that fully met all conditions for identity because we were in perpetual connection with our source of identity. If you regain the source of your identity from Christ, you regain who you actually are, a child of God.
 
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As I’ve become older I realize for good or ill how much I’m truly like the first people who heavily influenced my understanding of my existence. My parents. Truly actions speak louder than words, especially when you’re young and impressionable. I don’t really remember much of what my parents said to me as a child but act after act they undertook imprinted themselves upon my consciousness. Most of those actions were positive. Ones of kindness, love, honor, and respect for oneself and for others. I was mostly a void as a young child and they filled that void with a philosophy. One that pervades every aspect of my being.
 

Z Buck McFate

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I wonder if it lends the feeling of being a valuable member of some group or a member of some valuable group (feeling a sense of value by proxy). This is regardless of the size of the group, and regardless of whether a person directly interacts with the group. For example, wearing a particular brand can make a person feel like a member of a valuable group. Regardless of what the people directly within one's social sphere think, I think identifying with certain qualities can feel like an attachment to someone or some group out of one's direct reach- engendering some sense of importance or purpose through that image.

While it can bring a sense of security, I think the downside of identifying with certain qualities or values - even when those qualities or values are benevolent or noble - can have the consequence of necessarily also feeling an attachment to the corresponding image, and (unconsciously) putting more effort into nurturing image than cultivating the actual qualities or values. Also, if you identify with specific values and you need external affirmation of it, then someone can use that to control shared reality.
 

Mole

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I've been thinking about this a lot lately, especially in conjunction with the young people in my life.

I used to think identity came from the social roles we play in our connection to other people, the job we do, and the skills we have, and I think they contribute, but they are not powerful enough in themselves to offer a sense of who we really are fundamentally.

Personality is a component of identity, but people can even over identify with their personality type, at the expense of being the individual they are.

At a course this summer, it talked about certain kinds of play allowing us as children to try different personas, professions, ways of relating on for size and teaching us what doesn't change, or what remains constant though it all.

I think accepting or reconciling our looks, name, age, gender, parentage, ethnicity, nationality, are a part of gaining a firm sense of identity, but even they don't make up the core of who we are even though they contribute to it it and are not easy to change.

I believe small children rely solely on the adults or older people in their lives to borrow their identity from, and when they are very young, have little more than their age, and their sex to define who they are. Hence boasting about how strong their dad is compared to the next kids', or how much money their family has etc. Kids always seem to need to sort out the hierarchy of who is best all the way down to worst at something so they can figure out where they fit in.

While I think our life events have a profound influence on us, I don't think they have to define us completely. Same with our possessions, education, or earning power.

Teenagers looking to find a sense of identity often use music or clothing, or makeup, hobbies or friend groups to gain a superficial sense of who they are, but it is mostly circumstantial or something that can easily be changed.

What do you think it is that truly captures the essence of who we are at our core, and what defines the way we see ourselves?

There are now two sources of identity. The first is one I share and it is the inner identity of the literate individual.

It is a highly useful identity as it is not dependent on the outside world and can be taken into any situation, into any culture, and even into any class. And it is this interior identity that made colonisation of the world possible, and made the colonisation of my country possible and successful.

And at the second source of identity is the electronic tribe. It is quite different from the identity of the literate individual, and depends on real time emotional contact with a particular electronic tribe. This is why we see almost everyone constantly looking at their mobile phone: they are keeping in constant emotional contact with their particular electronic tribe.

Interestingly, traditional tribes establish their tribal identity by ritual warfare, where almost no one gets killed. And today in America we see particular electronic tribes engaged in ritual warfare across the country.

And the literate individuals do not understand why their country seems to be pulling itself apart and becoming ungovernable, when Americans are simply establishing their particular etribal identity.
 

Yuurei

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Thinking about my role in all of this is...ironic, a Greek Tragedy I guess.

As I grew up those around me really only allowed me to identity as a sad, sick little girl, some pathetic victim of circumstance. My entire life became about fighting that identity so yeah, in the end fighting with a disability did become a large part of my identity. Just not the sad, sick or pathetic part. So could have been worse.
 

prplchknz

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honestly i have no clue where my sense of self comes from.
 

Ghost

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I'm 28% sure my sense of identity spontaneously formed inside my spleen.
 

OrangeAppled

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I certainly think a degree of personality is innate (an essential spirit so to speak). But I also think we develop a lot in relation to our environment.

I think initially that identity is about separating ourselves from our caregivers, both through relating and noticing differences. This separation of ourselves as individuals is necessary of course. The ego is the identification with the ways we experienced and interpreted reality during this process, and often we were not set in one way at first. We necessarily had to adopt a particular perspective, though, just to function. Our essential spirit is actually limited by this though.

It starts with the body - “I have my own body, separate from my mother, who I was once connected to”. Then it goes to the mind - “I have my own mind and what I experience is not also automatically experienced or known by others too”.

Built into this is how our mind and body and spirit (our essential nature) compare to others. A basic foundation for a healthy identity is gender (identification with one’s biological sex). It’s one of the first things people identify with as, along with their family. It’s part of the body identification and noticing how you’re similar or different from others. Then it becomes social.

Then comes internalizing messages from family. When you’re little, apparently you don’t form conscious memories that you’ve interpreted. People around you interpret stuff for you, and their messages can help form your inner voice. Often this is simply in how they respond and react to you. You also form impressions about what reality is like without that rational explanation, and so often it is experienced as a message about yourself. Emotions experienced then can deeply influence your sense of self. They seem to arise from nowhere, just being “who you are” or even apparent truths, but they are leftovers from a time when you weren’t equipped to process it fully, so you didn’t at all, and it’s stored in your nervous system. Or someone processed it for you and you internalized that message, but as an adult it just feels a part of you.

Then there is introjection and projection. Introjection is when we absorb and adopt stuff we observe in others as part of our identity. This might be stuff we admire in people we trust. Projection is when we deny stuff we don’t like that is within ourselves and ascribe it to others. This could be stuff we were criticized for or didn’t like in others.

As we get older, then we have to integrate. First we realize the truth that we are individuals, then must again learn that we are also connected to everything. We are more than our egos. The identity is a way to function but it doesn’t limit you. Many never integrate. I’m guessing it starts well into adulthood for most, perhaps at midlife. Adolescence is extended nowadays and individualism has been taken to a logical extreme, so it may be delayed nowadays.

There’s a weird paradox in which people don’t feel they are “true to themselves” until they integrate. They experience everything as a threat to the ego before then, or that their life is ruled by outside forces (ie social pressures). When they resist those forces out of a threatened ego, thinking they are upholding their individuality, it’s almost quite the opposite. They are really resisting aspects of themselves they’ve repressed or denied for various reasons. Instead of being their whole selves, they are unnecessarily limited by an ego that doesn’t serve them anymore.

Some of this is from stuff Ive read, some is my ideas or what I’ve observed, and all of it is my interpretation.
 
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