Is it worse for women?

[ZiL]

Whoah... Good comment. You just took my mind off the genes and filled it with feminism. So, the question turns around into: How would the world be if women had the role of men in the society for, say, the last ten thousand years? Would the men now be obsessed with their looks? Would it have been even theoretically possible for a society dominated by females to survive until this age? Are there any societies anywhere that are female-dominated?

Damn, this conversation has been really something. I have had this revelation feeling for several times now.

And, yeah, I'm up for a revolution.

I had just been thinking about this today - what would the world be like if women had been in the same position as men. The question arose in my primate behavior class, while we were watching a video about the only polyandrous group of New World monkeys, lol. It is so hard to hypothesize how that would be. Later I was watching CNN for a minute and they were talking about Sarah Palin, and the host said they were about to bring in four "smart, independent and undecided" women to discuss tonight's debate. The way he said it made it sound like these types of women were something of a rare breed - women are half the population! It just drove home to me the fact that despite women making up such an equal portion of the population, interviews exclusively with a number of women are looked at as out-of-the-ordinary and usually restricted to "women's issues." Even to me, it is odd to see only women making up a panel on cable news. It's hard to imagine hypothetical situations like this when our everyday experiences and understandings of the world are still deeply tied to male-dominated history.

There are matrilineal societies, but of course matrilineality doesn't guarantee women more power, though their roles in keeping the matrilineage strong are vital. Smaller band societies tend towards more equality, I guess - there is a fairly even division of labor - with men hunting and women gathering and both being necessary for survival. Women are needed for survival and so retain a level of status. But as for female dominated societies, I can't say I've ever heard of any. If there are some, I need to stop slacking because I'm an anthropology major....

 

[Lucifer]

I do not have the time to read this entire thread, but I am interested to hear what the members have come up with.

I would appreciate a summary from someone who has read a majority of this thread and is also willing to bring up all the prominent thoughts.

 

[Mondo]

Summers' remarks on women draw fire - The Boston Globe

Do you guys think this is true?
I have certainly met women who are brilliant at math and science.

However, I have met more men with such an aptitude, is it unreasonable to say that there are more men who have an exceptionally strong aptitude in math and science than women?
Or if certain societal pressures were lifted off women- the pressure that women shouldn't pursue mathematics because it is a man's subject- would we find an equal number of men and women in the math/sciences?

 

[ptgatsby]

I can agree on number two. For some reason I find it very hard to believe that success is related to genes (in this world or the one we were evolved in). I can agree , though, that being unsuccessful can sometimes be because of bad genes. So I guess it is "playing it safe" to choose a successful mate.

Either way, sure

Wait a minute. Isn't it like a statistical fact that men are the cheaters?

Not exactly. Men certainly are more known for cheating, but with genetic testing, it turns out women, who say they don't cheat, have an awful lot of children that are not with her husband.

I'm generally of the opinion that the dynamics of selection determined a lot of the male dominant societies, but there is no reason why that cannot change. Everything is changing now, really...

 

[ZiL]

Summers' remarks on women draw fire - The Boston Globe

Do you guys think this is true?
I have certainly met women who are brilliant at math and science.

However, I have met more men with such an aptitude, is it unreasonable to say that there are more men who have an exceptionally strong aptitude in math and science than women?
Or if certain societal pressures were lifted off women- the pressure that women shouldn't pursue mathematics because it is a man's subject- would we find an equal number of men and women in the math/sciences?

Good question. Hard to say if the number would be equal, but I'm sure there would be a surge in numbers. The advanced physics class I took in high school (2-3 years ago) had a male/female population ration of like 25:7. I wish there had been more females to balance it out, because a lot of the guys were smart but immature, so it felt like you were having to deal with the boy's club first before you could ever get down to work seriously. It wasn't an optimal environment, and if she wasn't into the subject to begin with, I could see a girl easily being turned off the idea of studying physics seriously in college. I was pretty good at physics, but I had to waste so much energy trying to get the guys in my groups to focus, that it really hurt my ability to enjoy the subject. And the fact that there were only 7 girls in the class contributed to the underlying stereotypical feeling that "maybe girls just weren't good at it." Usually a wide gender disparity in a class shouldn't contribute to feelings of inferiority, but since this particular stereotype already exists, it's kind of hard not to be reminded of it when you find yourself surrounded by a lot of males and not so many females.

But that's just my experience.

Edit: Meant to add that I saw no indication that the female students did any worse than the males on average.

 

[nolla]

The host said they were about to bring in four "smart, independent and undecided" women to discuss tonight's debate. The way he said it made it sound like these types of women were something of a rare breed - women are half the population! It just drove home to me the fact that despite women making up such an equal portion of the population, interviews exclusively with a number of women are looked at as out-of-the-ordinary and usually restricted to "women's issues."

Yes, this kind of attitude clearly brings out the fact that women are nowhere near being equal to men. Personally I find it ridiculous, but still can somehow understand, since feminism is really a young movement.

Summers' remarks on women draw fire - The Boston Globe

Do you guys think this is true?
I have certainly met women who are brilliant at math and science.

However, I have met more men with such an aptitude, is it unreasonable to say that there are more men who have an exceptionally strong aptitude in math and science than women?
Or if certain societal pressures were lifted off women- the pressure that women shouldn't pursue mathematics because it is a man's subject- would we find an equal number of men and women in the math/sciences?

It is silly that they are offended by the comment. There are differences between man and woman. You can see many of them with your eyes. It would be stupid to claim that the minds would be identical and made for exactly the same purposes if our bodies aren't. But, it is good to find out how big the differences are. We don't know if women aren't in the sciences because they were never expected to be.

 

[nolla]

Not exactly. Men certainly are more known for cheating, but with genetic testing, it turns out women, who say they don't cheat, have an awful lot of children that are not with her husband.

Really!? Now, mothers, come clean and confess.. How many bastard children do you have?

But seriously, where did you get that info? Links, please... (if it turns out true, I will never trust a woman again )

 

[Mitzy]

Girls, can you settle this?: Do more girls dress and try to look good for other girls or for guys?

i think when girls dress fashionably they do it for the women. but when they throw on something sexy and skimpy, its obviously for the men.


at the same time, i dont think its a matter of trying to impress either

its about competition and self esteem

there will be always someone better
people try to top it and look better than the one that looks better than them
cycle goes on
no one will ever feel suffice

 

[nolla]

at the same time, i dont think its a matter of trying to impress either

its about competition and self esteem

So, what is the prize of the competition? I don't think that women compete each other only because they love to compete. The only prizes that I can see is either the respect of other women or the admiration of men. It must be to impress someone.

 

[ptgatsby]

But seriously, where did you get that info? Links, please... (if it turns out true, I will never trust a woman again )

Egad, I've been cited! Give me some time, I'll get back to you

(Now I get to pray my memory isn't getting me into trouble!)

 

[Mitzy]

So, what is the prize of the competition? I don't think that women compete each other only because they love to compete. The only prizes that I can see is either the respect of other women or the admiration of men. It must be to impress someone.

they compete to win and to feel better about their own selves

at first, they show off to other women and flaunt themselves. so yeah, they do compete to compete

its not really much about guys...
guys are just like accessories

more guys you have around, the more there is to show off to other women and make them jealous

the more desirable you are to guys, the better woman you are. the better woman you are, the more you win the game

of course this is all surface

in the end girls get tired and want something more real with a man
in which case thats when the girl stops trying so hard
and THATS when they let themselves go and just put on a pair of jeans t shirt and mascara

cuz when it comes to guys
its whats on the inside that counts, not the outside. and thats when girls become all mushy and generally follow the whole 'feminine' role..

 

[nolla]

So there are many prizes? First the regained self-confidence, then the respect of women, then the trophy-guys, then later on, self-improvement?

 

[Mitzy]

word.

its a chain/cycle

 

[ptgatsby]

Really!? Now, mothers, come clean and confess.. How many bastard children do you have?

But seriously, where did you get that info? Links, please... (if it turns out true, I will never trust a woman again )

I googled up what I remember - the most likely reference that I am thinking of is covered in "Genetic Ties and the Family". But looking at it now, the reference is probably biased towards those that would get tested, so take it with a large grain of salt. The data itself comes from reports from paternity testing in the states and australia.

The most I'll say is that it is highly suggestive that women under-report their own cheating, meaning that the gap might be much narrower than we think.

 

[nolla]

I googled up what I remember - the most likely reference that I am thinking of is covered in "Genetic Ties and the Family". But looking at it now, the reference is probably biased towards those that would get tested, so take it with a large grain of salt. The data itself comes from reports from paternity testing in the states and australia.

The most I'll say is that it is highly suggestive that women under-report their own cheating, meaning that the gap might be much narrower than we think.

Thanks. Looks like an interesting book, I'm going to go through as much as possible at google books. (I only read the story of a man who has to pay child support for a child that isn't his, and is denied to see the child. WTF? I have to read this through...)

 

[Cindy]

I was trying to ask if your self-doubt comes from unconscious (as passive as it can get) man-hunting. See:



The first part you say you don't like yourself when you compare to other women. Now, this is the unconscious part. Then you say you consciously need to fight it. Then you doubt if it is about men. My question: What else could it be? Why do you need to be desirable if it isn't about men?

To be an influential part of a group?
Beauty gives power over men and women alike.
Looking good gives the illusion that you are also strong and healthy.

BTW I didn't read any further down the thread than this.

 

[nolla]

To be an influential part of a group?
Beauty gives power over men and women alike.
Looking good gives the illusion that you are also strong and healthy.

You are right that power is an important factor in this. Very important. We could even turn the whole question about power and say that men are mostly the ones that have power and the women are the ones trying to take some of it away. The men don't have the need to use their looks, as it is enough to know your business. But women are treated unfairly, so they need to put on the make-up and the short-but-not-too-short skirt and gain some more power over the men.

This is actually interesting point of view because we can see that the feminists who refuse to play along and rather burn their bra, will lose power, thus making it harder for feminism to succeed.

 

[Cindy]

The power would be more equal if what most women are naturally good at was valued by the majority ie. the value of a successful parent having as higher status value as being a successful executive. I wish I had an example that was less loaded.

Looks are a matter of luck, we are competing with luck lol.
There is endless opportunity to get smarter however learning to be prettier is limited. Choosing to use our looks as a determining point for confidence is a trap, the scope needs to be broader.

Looks have their power, even for a man with a sexy face, yet men have a broader range of possible successes to rate their confidence on (and so do girls but we don't see it so easily) hence being ugly is not going to weigh as heavily on a mans self esteem.

So there is my thinking but can't beat the feelings eh.
Perhaps it's heavily built into our subconscious, or perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree lol.

 

[edel weiss]

This is actually interesting point of view because we can see that the feminists who refuse to play along and rather burn their bra, will lose power, thus making it harder for feminism to succeed.

Feminism would actually say that a woman shouldn't need to 'play along', just to gain power. If she wants to wear make up, good for her. If she feels like she has to wear make up because that's what people expect, it's not very healthy.

 

[nolla]

Feminism would actually say that a woman shouldn't need to 'play along', just to gain power. If she wants to wear make up, good for her. If she feels like she has to wear make up because that's what people expect, it's not very healthy.

I agree, they shouldn't. But most of the women I know do make up because it is expected of them. But then again, I wear trousers and not skirt because that is expected of me.