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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Are you saying the only way to know for sure that one is worthy of love is to be loved by another?
    I was trying to ask if your self-doubt comes from unconscious (as passive as it can get) man-hunting. See:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Sigh. Well, I cannot tell if that is it... but I know lots of times I'm very happy with myself -- until I get around someone else who I think is prettier, or has a nicer voice, or seems just "better" (i.e., more desirable/attractive overall) than me.

    Then I feel like crap and have to consciously buck up and tell myself I'm fine as I am and fight the bad feelings. (i.e., I stop comparing to everyone else and just compare to myself... am I the best that *I* can be?)


    I still don't know if it's about men.
    It's simply that my self-image takes a hit because I'm not as desirable as I realize someone might be. But like I said, that standard is highly unrealistic. It's like I have to "woo and win" myself over, not someone else per se.
    The first part you say you don't like yourself when you compare to other women. Now, this is the unconscious part. Then you say you consciously need to fight it. Then you doubt if it is about men. My question: What else could it be? Why do you need to be desirable if it isn't about men?

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    I don't think I try to 'look good' for other women. I don't really care what other women think of me. I want to 'look good' for men.

    I always hear guys talking about 'hot girls', and contrasting them to 'but-her-faces', and I have a hard time really believing that guys don't care that much about a woman's looks (at least in this thread, the guys' responses have been such that a girls appearance isn't that important, and the woman just needs to get more self esteem rather than focus on her appearance. But that's kinda a lie in my opinion. Attraction IS important, and men want to be with attractive women).
    I think the reason you get the looks-don't-matter-too-much responses around here is because we are mostly N-males. I am sure if you could collect and test all the men who think the looks are the main thing, most of them are S.

    Sure, looks are a big thing, but to me it seems like many good looking women doubt themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    Random comment -- say you have a woman in her 20's or 30's with thinning hair, and by her late 30's she very well may need a wig. What say you, men? Is that something a woman can easily slough off and still find tons of suitors who really want her? Obviously looks aren't ultimately important when it comes to a friendship, but I think it's bull that it's crocked up to a simple esteem issue when the reality seems to point towards attraction/desirability being a key factor in the initial pairing and romance. Obviously longevity is going to need a lot more than that though.
    This is somewhat different case, since losing hair is telling the male that she isn't healthy. It is automatic response of animals not to mate with sick individuals and the loss of hair is often sign of sickness. If we talk about slightly overweight girls or imperfect faces, there is no biological reason to turn them down.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    I think the reason you get the looks-don't-matter-too-much responses around here is because we are mostly N-males. I am sure if you could collect and test all the men who think the looks are the main thing, most of them are S.
    Maybe.
    Somewhat.
    There's enough randy/carnal N guys around here, though.
    Once the drive kicks in, both S's and N's can be pretty carnal.

    Sure, looks are a big thing, but to me it seems like many good looking women doubt themselves.
    That is one thing I am amazed over... how everyone is insecure on some level. Women always seem to be insecure about their looks. I know no matter how many compliments I get, I regularly feel like I'm deficient that way and want to look even better. (Then I say "screw this" and focus on something else.)

    This is somewhat different case, since losing hair is telling the male that she isn't healthy. It is automatic response of animals not to mate with sick individuals and the loss of hair is often sign of sickness. If we talk about slightly overweight girls or imperfect faces, there is no biological reason to turn them down.
    Possibly. It depends on how you define "slightly overweight" and "slightly imperfect/asymmetrical."

    Because we're not talking about "slightly thinning," we're talking "substantial hairloss"... so your analogy should properly refer to "substantially overweight" or "substantially asymmetrical" to remain valid. And all three are signs of reproductive unacceptability.

    I also think that an attractive bald woman is someone guys actually find hot... her baldness has nothing to do with her attractiveness. There are just few women who can pull it off because of their insecurity over hair loss, and that throws off their inner grace.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    attractive bald woman
    example please?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    example please?

    Geek alert.



    But note how perfectly shaped her head is.

    Women with less-perfect heads are helped appearance-wise by hair.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Geek alert.
    But note how perfectly shaped her head is.
    .
    you may have a point
    but she'd be much more attractive (and indeed, less threatening)
    if she wasn't an egg-head
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    you may have a point
    but she'd be much more attractive (and indeed, less threatening)
    if she wasn't an egg-head
    So do you think hair "softens" women and makes them look more nurturing and less threatening?

    I guess I have to make a confession: I prefer having hair.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Possibly. It depends on how you define "slightly overweight" and "slightly imperfect/asymmetrical."

    Because we're not talking about "slightly thinning," we're talking "substantial hairloss"... so your analogy should properly refer to "substantially overweight" or "substantially asymmetrical" to remain valid. And all three are signs of reproductive unacceptability.
    Hmm... Maybe... I guess we really should be talking about the "norm" for beauty set by the extremely beautiful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I also think that an attractive bald woman is someone guys actually find hot... her baldness has nothing to do with her attractiveness. There are just few women who can pull it off because of their insecurity over hair loss, and that throws off their inner grace.
    Yes, completely bold women are hot. But they needs very feminine face and they can't have "square-shaped" head. So, it doesn't work for most. With hair they would be hot anyways...

  9. #59
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    Default An Abject Object

    Sure, women are attracted to resources and men are attracted to fertility - otherwise we would not be here.

    But we know this, so it is recursive.

    And not only do we know it, we can share it with each other. So it is recursive in our own minds and between one another.

    And even thinking this makes us vulnerable, and sharing this makes us unbearably vulnerable. So we prefer to retreat to treating ourselves and each other as objects.

    We are so abject we treat each other as objects.

    But this makes us feel comfortable because it removes us from our vulnerability.

    But vulnerability is the very basis of creativity; vulnerability is the ground of love; and vulnerability is deeply and profoundly enlivening.

    But we prefer to be abject objects rather than enlived and enlivening.

    But most of all, we hide this choice from ourselves.

    And why not?

    Who could possibly admit to being an abject object for comfort's sake?

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So do you think hair "softens" women and makes them look more nurturing and less threatening?

    I guess I have to make a confession: I prefer having hair.
    egg-head=intellectual
    'twas a subtle allusion to a previous post
    too subtle, apparently

    PS. i shaved all my hair off a few years ago.
    it was very liberating, especially from work....
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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