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Guilty Verdict for Young Woman Who Urged Friend to Kill Himself

magpie

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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/16/us/suicide-texting-trial-michelle-carter-conrad-roy.html?_r=0

For a case that had played out in thousands of text messages, what made Michelle Carter’s behavior a crime, a judge concluded, came in a single phone call. Just as her friend Conrad Roy III stepped out of the truck he had filled with lethal fumes, Ms. Carter told him over the phone to get back in the cab and then listened to him die without trying to help him.

That command, and Ms. Carter’s failure to help, said Judge Lawrence Moniz of Bristol County Juvenile Court, made her guilty of involuntary manslaughter in a case that had consumed New England, left two families destroyed and raised questions about the scope of legal responsibility. Ms. Carter, now 20, is to be sentenced Aug. 3 and faces up to 20 years in prison.

The judge’s decision, handed down on Friday, stunned many legal experts with its conclusion that words alone could cause a suicide.

“This is saying that what she did is killing him, that her words literally killed him, that the murder weapon here was her words,” said Matthew Segal, a lawyer with the American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts, which raised concerns about the case to the state’s highest court. “That is a drastic expansion of criminal law in Massachusetts.”

Ms. Carter’s defense team is expected to appeal the verdict. Legal experts said that it seemed to extend manslaughter law into new territory, and that if it stood, it could have far-reaching implications, at least in Massachusetts.

“Will the next case be a Facebook posting in which someone is encouraged to commit a crime?” Nancy Gertner, a former federal judge and Harvard Law professor, asked. “This puts all the things that you say in the mix of criminal responsibility.”

Judge Moniz unspooled his verdict in a packed courtroom, which was silent except for his voice and Ms. Carter’s gasping sobs. By the time he told Ms. Carter to stand up, and pronounced her guilty, the two families seated on either side of the courtroom’s aisle — Ms. Carter’s and Mr. Roy’s — wept, too.

The verdict concluded an emotionally draining weeklong trial in southeastern Massachusetts involving two troubled teenagers who had built a virtual relationship largely on texting from 2012 to 2014. Ms. Carter, then 17, started out encouraging Mr. Roy, 18, to seek treatment for his depression but then abruptly changed, and in the two weeks before he killed himself on July 12, 2014, she encouraged him, repeatedly, to do it.

For all the scrutiny during the trial of their texts, the judge based his guilty verdict on a phone conversation.

Once Mr. Roy drove his truck to a remote spot at a Kmart parking lot, the two ceased texting and instead talked on their cellphones. When Mr. Roy, with fumes gathering in the cab of his truck, apparently had a change of heart and stepped out, the judge said, Ms. Carter told him to get back in, fully knowing “his ambiguities, his fears, his concerns.”

“This court finds,” the judge added, “that instructing Mr. Roy to get back in the truck constituted wanton and reckless conduct.”

But the phone conversation was not recorded, and the only evidence of its content came three months after the suicide in a text from Ms. Carter to a friend.

“Sam his death is my fault, like honestly I could have stopped him,” Ms. Carter wrote. “I was on the phone with him and he got out of the car because it was working and he got scared.”

She said she then instructed him “to get back in.”

The prosecution made this phone call, as described in Ms. Carter’s text, the heart of its case. And the judge accepted it as factual and incriminating.

The defense strongly argued that there was nothing to substantiate what Ms. Carter had said on the phone and insisted that Mr. Conrad, who had tried to kill himself before, was determined to take his own life, regardless of anything Ms. Carter did or said.

Judge Moniz acknowledged that Mr. Roy had taken steps to cause his own death, like researching suicide methods, obtaining a generator and then the water pump with which he ultimately poisoned himself. Indeed, Judge Moniz said that Ms. Carter’s text messages pressuring him to kill himself had not, on their own, caused his death.

Instead, the judge zeroed in on the moment that Mr. Roy climbed out of his truck.

“He breaks that chain of self-causation by exiting the vehicle,” Judge Moniz said. “He takes himself out of that toxic environment that it has become.” That, the judge said, was a clear indication that Mr. Roy — as on his previous suicide attempts — wanted to save himself.

Is encouraging someone to commit suicide manslaughter? Should words legally be considered murder weapons? Is there ever a time where it would be moral to encourage someone to kill themselves? Are suicidal people responsible for their own actions under the law? Should they be? What sort of precedent does this set for the law, freedom of speech, and mentally ill people?
 

iwakar

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Well, we've long since established that words can be criminal. Freedom of speech isn't freedom from consequences. This ruling is merely an extension of that.

Pretending that only weapons are weapons is one of many societal failings that allows for all sorts of emotional and psychological abuse to transpire without consequence.

I'm fine with this judicial ruling.
 

Totenkindly

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She seemed to go beyond just advising him to do it and would actually belittle him, to the degree that when he tried to stop, she egged him back on again. There was a degree of interaction where she was even vocally present at the suicide (not just a static post on a FaceBook page), where he had changed his mind and she was the little devil on his shoulder demanding he go through it.

Will that set a precedent since it is such a unique and intense interaction that occurred? I dunno. It seems a bit different than the general bullying to me, where someone then offs themselves in private without coordinating with someone else. She might as well have been standing right there and participating in person, since virtually she was actively involved and in fact his death directly came from her influence since he was bailing.

I'm not really sure about what a punishment should be in terms of specifics, but there should be a punishment.
 

The Cat

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and so it begins again...
 

HisKittyKat

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I was very pleased with the verdict:).....She is nut case on every level and the thought of someone like her roaming the streets was scary. I mean who in their right mind convinces someone to kill themselves, only a person who is insane.

I don't have an opinion in terms of should words be considered criminal, however in this particular case the Judge made the right call. Lock this monster up and throw away the key.
 

The Cat

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I'll just go ahead and leave these here...try to give us a head start, we will not be hiding in the windmill, or the castle on the hill.
 

magpie

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In my opinion, she is guilty of inciting violence, not committing manslaughter. Suicide isn't a crime. She was an accessory to suicide, not murder, and she isn't a murderer. What she did was wrong for sure. She doesn't deserve up to 20 years in jail though. It's also possible that she sincerely thought he would be better off dead and was attempting to act in his best interest. I'm not sure if that was part of her motive but there are definitely cases where encouragement to commit suicide is done in a person's best interest as opposed to being a form of bullying, and I feel this case sets a dangerous precedent in what we define as illegal and why we define it that way, as well as completely erasing the autonomy and decision making of the boy who killed himself. He chose to do that.

All that being said, I still think the way she encouraged him and told her friends about it shows aspects of sociopathy and I think morally she was obviously in the wrong. I don't think she's irredeemable though.

Another part of this case that was particularly interesting was the psychiatrist who testified on her behalf, claiming she was intoxicated by psych drugs.

Woman Who Urged Her Boyfriend To Kill Himself Became “Delusional” Because Of Antidepressants: Psychiatrist

Michelle Carter “desperately” wanted to help keep her 18-year-old depressed and suicidal boyfriend alive, but less than 10 days before he killed himself in 2014, she underwent a “transformation” because of antidepressants, a psychiatrist testified in her defense in a Massachusetts court on Monday.

Carter, then 17, was “involuntarily intoxicated” by antidepressants at the time she sent numerous text messages to Conrad Roy encouraging him to kill himself, and chastising him when he delayed his suicide attempts, Dr. Peter Breggin testified on the sixth day of Carter’s trial at the Taunton District Court.

As one of the defense’s prime witnesses, Breggin testified that the use of antidepressants led Carter to become “grandiose” and "delusional" where she decided the only way to help Roy was to help him kill himself and help him go to heaven, as the two had discussed over text messages.

There is research that supports this claim:

Antidepressants and Violence: The Clear Connection – Citizens Commission on Human Rights, CCHR

Antidepressants and Violence: A Link in Search of a Cause | Psychology Today

Violence and Suicide Caused by Antidepressants Report to the FDA | Psychiatric Drug Facts

Suicidality and aggression during antidepressant treatment: systematic review and meta-analyses based on clinical study reports | The BMJ
 

Totenkindly

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I'll just go ahead and leave these here...try to give us a head start, we will not be hiding in the windmill, or the castle on the hill.

I'm not really sure what your ongoing contribution is here -- whether you are for punishing her in some way or whether you're just making sarcastic comments about a mob effect looking for someone to blame. (I'll guess the latter... but maybe it would be more constructive to actually state your thoughts versus taking swipes at folks who think she should be punished in some way?)

Yeah, it is a gray area. Like I said earlier, her contribution seemed beyond the norm and she was effectively "there" during the suicide to manipulate him into continuing, for whatever reason.

I was thinking about Kevorkian a bit, although his motivations seemed different and he just provided resources for someone to commit suicide which is what got him in trouble. But yeah, maybe what Magpie has said? Maybe Inciting Violence or a similar charge would have been more appropriate?

I'd probably review the transcript of what exactly she said, just for further assessment -- there's a big difference between supporting someone in suicide because they are in pain and you care about them, versus insisting someone kill themselves because you want them to die.

I don't think all the bullying cases of that last few years have helped. In that sense, society is looking to punish someone, true. There have been too many teen bullies who have greatly contributed to victim deaths without any punishment at all, so it makes sense society wants to see someone take a fall.
 

Lord Lavender

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This is a very ambiguous case in which things are not as black and white as we like to think they are. On the one hand we can see everyone as responsible for their own life and it is your fault if someone tells you to kill yourself and you choose to do so. On the other hand in general telling someone to kill themselves (beyond them being some criminal or offender) is very wrong and immoral on the whole.

In general if someone committed suicide and there is solid evidence another person deliberately told them to kill themselves they should at the least get charged with abuse and neglect of another persons basic needs (In this case their mental health and emotional well being). There are however cases of consensual suicide where the person who killed themselves enlisted another help and I think that shouldnt be punished if was clear the victim stated his/her intent to kill self clearly and was merely enlisting another to help.
 

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In general if someone committed suicide and there is solid evidence another person deliberately told them to kill themselves they should at the least get charged with abuse and neglect of another persons basic needs (In this case their mental health and emotional well being).

I was bullied on a forum (not this one) as a teen and told to kill myself by multiple people. Are you saying those people deserve criminal charges and that telling someone to kill themselves should be made illegal? Or are you saying it should only be illegal in retrospect if the person who was told to do so succeeds in their attempt? I'm confused about your stance.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Too bad we can't get his side of the story. Very gray area. She is responsible, but I think it might be harsh to treat this as murder, as she was likely not in her right headspace either. 20 years seems the wrong way to handle this, when she might need mental health treatment instead.

I also don't think this sort of thing is (or should be) protected under free speech.
 

Jaguar

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Don't know all the facts of the case but at this point, I'm wondering the reasoning behind the decision to forego a jury trial.
 

Totenkindly

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This is a very ambiguous case in which things are not as black and white as we like to think they are. On the one hand we can see everyone as responsible for their own life and it is your fault if someone tells you to kill yourself and you choose to do so. On the other hand in general telling someone to kill themselves (beyond them being some criminal or offender) is very wrong and immoral on the whole.

I think that is one thing that makes this confusing for folks to sift through. Many people will have a response of her behavior as being immoral / cruel; yet the question is, is what she did illegal, and to what degree, and depending on the degree, what kind of legal precedent will it set?
 

Siúil a Rúin

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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/16/us/suicide-texting-trial-michelle-carter-conrad-roy.html?_r=0 Is encouraging someone to commit suicide manslaughter? Should words legally be considered murder weapons? Is there ever a time where it would be moral to encourage someone to kill themselves? Are suicidal people responsible for their own actions under the law? Should they be? What sort of precedent does this set for the law, freedom of speech, and mentally ill people?
I can see it sets a complex precedent legally to conclude words alone can kill. Consider that suicide hotlines exist based on the assumption that words can save a life, that words alone can change a person's choice and action in a suicide. Why would it only be true in the positive?
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Also consider how ideas and words alone have resulted in mass suicides in cult settings. Masses of people have been talked into drinking the Koolaid.

This is an important consideration because the mass of people under the influence of Jim Jones were not all naturally ready to end their lives. He talked them into it.
 
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In my opinion, she is guilty of inciting violence, not committing manslaughter. Suicide isn't a crime. She was an accessory to suicide, not murder, and she isn't a murderer.

I'm inclined to agree, from what I know about the case so far. She is an attractive girl, and beautiful women are sometimes seen as dangerous to society in a way that ordinary-looking people can not be. Possibly this led to her being overcharged. Maybe. :shrug:
 

Totenkindly

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Michelle Carter's Texts to Conrad Roy: 'It's Now or Never'
Texts reveal how Michelle Carter encouraged Conrad Roy III to kill himself | Daily Mail Online
Michelle Carter Texts


I can't see the last page at work, but it claims to be the text messages. SOme of the messages also appear in the first link.


I'm inclined to agree, from what I know about the case so far. She is an attractive girl, and beautiful women are sometimes seen as dangerous to society in a way that ordinary-looking people can not be. Possibly this led to her being overcharged. Maybe. :shrug:

Total speculation on my part, but there's also an expectation for women to be loving and supporting, and in a sense she helped push him to off himself... (although maybe she felt she was being "supportive"). But you know what I mean... she's kind of gotten this public image of a manipulative Mean Girl, versus the beautiful loving girlfriend who was supposed to dissuade him.

In one of those articles, it looks like she experienced some regret after... like, she expected to feel him looking down on her and caring for her, but she feels none of that... leading to second thoughts, that maybe it was a mistake.

Also consider how ideas and words alone have resulted in mass suicides in cult settings. Masses of people have been talked into drinking the Koolaid.

This is an important consideration because the mass of people under the influence of Jim Jones were not all naturally ready to end their lives. He talked them into it.

Man, I have heard the tapes of that. (They're on YouTube somewhere, 30-60 minutes of the last sermon he was giving, with people drinking the koolaid and conking out.) It's just insane. Basically, minds are shaped and prepped over a long period of time, so the actual end is just a culmination of a lot of prior thinking and planning. Although I think Jones had already had other Kool-aid sessions, so people didn't necessarily know this one was the real thing?
 

The Cat

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I'm not really sure what your ongoing contribution is here -- whether you are for punishing her in some way or whether you're just making sarcastic comments about a mob effect looking for someone to blame. (I'll guess the latter... but maybe it would be more constructive to actually state your thoughts versus taking swipes at folks who think she should be punished in some way?)

Yeah, it is a gray area. Like I said earlier, her contribution seemed beyond the norm and she was effectively "there" during the suicide to manipulate him into continuing, for whatever reason.

I was thinking about Kevorkian a bit, although his motivations seemed different and he just provided resources for someone to commit suicide which is what got him in trouble. But yeah, maybe what Magpie has said? Maybe Inciting Violence or a similar charge would have been more appropriate?

I'd probably review the transcript of what exactly she said, just for further assessment -- there's a big difference between supporting someone in suicide because they are in pain and you care about them, versus insisting someone kill themselves because you want them to die.

I don't think all the bullying cases of that last few years have helped. In that sense, society is looking to punish someone, true. There have been too many teen bullies who have greatly contributed to victim deaths without any punishment at all, so it makes sense society wants to see someone take a fall.

Sarcasm was not intended. Nor was I suggesting she should be punished. I apologize, if it seems that I am being disrespectful, or disruptive.
 

Totenkindly

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Sarcasm was not intended. Nor was I suggesting she should be punished. I apologize, if it seems that I am being disrespectful, or disruptive.

That's fine, I'm just still trying to understand what your point was and you still didn't say. :) I didn't want to miss something, you seem to be a thoughtful poster.
 

Lord Lavender

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I was bullied on a forum (not this one) as a teen and told to kill myself by multiple people. Are you saying those people deserve criminal charges and that telling someone to kill themselves should be made illegal? Or are you saying it should only be illegal in retrospect if the person who was told to do so succeeds in their attempt? I'm confused about your stance.

These kinds of cases are as I have said very subject to subjective analysis. Overall in cases like the one you mentioned it is very hard to say as many people tell a person to go kill themselves as a off-handed heavy insult and they should at the very least face in a forum context a ban for bullying and insults, . A stance I am strongly convicted in is that if a responsible person tells a vulnerable person to kill themselves (e.g patient, teacher, caretaker over a child or mentally ill person e.t.c) should certainly face legal action.

However in cases between two "general" adults (With nether holding a role of "care" or "responsibility" over the other) of good or roughly good mental health the lines become far more blurry. As to answer you question regarding the people who told you to go kill yourself in general a off-handed go kill yourself is probably too harsh to take legally (As it can be easily said by anyone in a heated situation) but a prolonged,deliberate and protracted campaign of trying to get another to kill themselves is certainly grounds for legal action regardless of if the victim kills themselves or not.
 
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