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Theory of Diametric Mind

Gunboat Diplomat

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I am new here, so maybe I am beating a dead horse, but I have come recently across a theory of the diametric mind:
Brain Imaging Reveals the Diametric Mind | Psychology Today

Readers of these posts will by now be familiar with the diametric model of the mind. It holds that we have evolved parallel modes of cognition in relation to the mechanistic world of objects as opposed to the mentalistic world of other people. You just can't kick people out of your path the way you can stones. And as anyone who treats people like objects—or objects like people—soon learns, understanding the difference is crucial. Chronic behavior of the former kind may be diagnosed as autistic, and severe cases of the latter as psychotic, extending the model to mental illness too.

There seem to be some parallels to MBTI concepts. Does it seem like a plausible model?
 

Pionart

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Uh yeah, "mechanical reasoning" and "social reasoning"? That's just Thinking and Feeling. -.-

btw does anyone find that psychologytoday's interface is all screwed up, with the main menu overlaying with the text of the article?
 

Gunboat Diplomat

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Exactly. But the interesting thing about this is, that if true, it would provide some actual, even though limited, evidence supporting MBTI. I haven't seen much of science behind MBTI (and related theories) so far.

And also, the whole autism / psychosis angle.
 

Pionart

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Exactly. But the interesting thing about this is, that if true, it would provide some actual, even though limited, evidence supporting MBTI. I haven't seen much of science behind MBTI (and related theories) so far.

Yeah that's a good thing I guess.

And also, the whole autism / psychosis angle.

I don't get what the connection between psychosis and mechanical reasoning/ Thinking is.
 

Mole

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I am new here, so maybe I am beating a dead horse, but I have come recently across a theory of the diametric mind:
Brain Imaging Reveals the Diametric Mind | Psychology Today
There seem to be some parallels to MBTI concepts. Does it seem like a plausible model?

The purpose of mbti is reification. The purpose of mbti is to reify living persons into things.

This is because things are easier to control and manipulate than persons. And things have no natural rights under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

And mbti particularly appeals to those who were psychologically damaged as children and who are unable to mature into happy satisfied adults.
 

Gunboat Diplomat

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I don't get what the connection between psychosis and mechanical reasoning/ Thinking is.

The connection is between psychosis and mentalistic thinking, on the opposite end of spectrum from autism/mechanistic thinking. Mentalistic thinking can result in reading too much meaning into something, anthropomorphising, suspecting more agency than there is. And psychosis would be an extreme form of that, like delusions and paranoia.

There are some other interesting relationships explained by the theory, e.g. mentalists tend to be conformists because they can empathise, while mechanists tend to be individualists, just because they don't understand social behaviours and expectations.
 

Gunboat Diplomat

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The purpose of mbti is reification. The purpose of mbti is to reify living persons into things.

This is because things are easier to control and manipulate than persons. And things have no natural rights under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

This is definitely an interesting take. I can see that categorising people can, in a way, dehumanise them. But is it always the case? We often categorise people as children or women. And then give them more rights/protections in some situations then generic people.

And mbti particularly appeals to those who were psychologically damaged as children and who are unable to mature into happy satisfied adults.

That might be the case, but reading the forums, I don't see more psychologically damaged people than elsewhere. I am not very observant though. It could be the case, that happy satisfied people don't feel the need to understand why they are happy.
 

Pionart

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The connection is between psychosis and mentalistic thinking, on the opposite end of spectrum from autism/mechanistic thinking. Mentalistic thinking can result in reading too much meaning into something, anthropomorphising, suspecting more agency than there is. And psychosis would be an extreme form of that, like delusions and paranoia.

There are some other interesting relationships explained by the theory, e.g. mentalists tend to be conformists because they can empathise, while mechanists tend to be individualists, just because they don't understand social behaviours and expectations.

Oh right, I read it the other way around.

Still, if mentalistic thinking is Feeling, then this is the first time that I'd heard that there was a connection between Feeling and psychosis. I don't know what the connections between psychosis and type is, but I had figured it would be linked to Intuition, if anything.
 

Gunboat Diplomat

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Yes, it's a good point about Intuition. I haven't heard about the connection between Feeling and psychosis before either. But there seem to be some pretty clear parallels. For example, a typical description of a Feeling type would mention an interest in other people and social situations (as opposed to an interest in abstract systems and ideas of the Thinking types). Apparently, brain scans of paranoid schizophrenic subjects show, that their medial pre-frontal cortex is active most of the time, as opposed to most other people. Normally, the medial pre-frontal cortex is active when forming intentions involving other people.
 

Pionart

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Yes, it's a good point about Intuition. I haven't heard about the connection between Feeling and psychosis before either. But there seem to be some pretty clear parallels. For example, a typical description of a Feeling type would mention an interest in other people and social situations (as opposed to an interest in abstract systems and ideas of the Thinking types). Apparently, brain scans of paranoid schizophrenic subjects show, that their medial pre-frontal cortex is active most of the time, as opposed to most other people. Normally, the medial pre-frontal cortex is active when forming intentions involving other people.

I'm interested in the question because I'm diagnosed as a schizophrenic. I thought schizophrenia was more to do with spiritual experiences, a dreamlike perception of reality, flights of fantasy and the like. I'd be interested to see what a brain scan of myself would show. I don't understand my diagnosis*, but I'm sure the people of the forum who saw my behaviour on here last year would get it...

* and I mean, if schizophrenia is as I just described it, then obviously I get why, because those were what I identified as the primary symptoms. There was some stuff regarding intentions of other people in the sense of hypothesising people doing things behind the scenes? But that was secondary to the main spiritual developments.
 

Gunboat Diplomat

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I thought schizophrenia was more to do with spiritual experiences, a dreamlike perception of reality, flights of fantasy and the like.
...
There was some stuff regarding intentions of other people in the sense of hypothesising people doing things behind the scenes? But that was secondary to the main spiritual developments.

My knowledge in this area is pretty limited and I can't even imagine these experiences. It would make sense though that model simplifications don't cover the whole complexity of real conditions. I can see however a possible connection with spiritual experiences you mention. The first definition of spirit that I have found
the non-physical part of a person that is the seat of emotions and character, the soul
indicates agency and feelings. And then schizophrenia could have other symptoms aside from psychosis from what I understand.

Another thing about this theory is that the two modes of thinking are not really exclusive, though using one tends to suppress the other. Some people can function at hyperactive levels of both modes (Newton for example).
 

Pionart

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A quote on schizophrenia I just found is:

Schizophrenia in fact is not a disease or ‘mental illness’, nor is it a hopeless condition. Schizophrenia is a brilliant condition… a personal ‘story’ which involves a natural and temporary self-organizing transformative process or crisis of transformation, a ‘psychospiritual crisis’ now known as ‘spiritual emergency’ . ‘Spiritual emergency’ is the term coined by psychiatrist Stanislav Grof to refer to the self-healing process which involves dissolution and removal of illusions and false beliefs which originate in the programming of social conditioning. This gives rise to aberrant thought complexes which prevent the person from making accurate evaluations for appropriate decision-making for effective social adaptation. In a period of spiritual emergency, the person instinctively surrenders to a spontaneous organismic process involving the temporary separation of thought and emotion (‘ego-loss’) which is necessary for the reassessment of their thoughts without having to deal with the emotional implications. The person undergoes a series of varying stages or ‘episodes’ and eventually learns to grow beyond fear based ego-consciousness, beyond cultural conditioning and the expectations of others to a higher consciousness state and the new level of awareness characteristic of self- transcendence or ‘ego-transcendence’. The state of ego-transcendence is characterized by an inner sense of emotional liberation which purifies and sharpens moral consciousness or ‘rational conscience’ … and therefore results in clarity and an accurate perception of reality… intuitive understanding or ‘intuition’.
Human intuition allows for the discovery of ideas and behaviors which increase the effectiveness of social adaptability… ‘Creativite intelligence’ is the defining characteristic of the human psyche or human personality i.e. ‘human nature’.

See, when I read things like that, it's clear enough that I was a schizophrenic, but when I am told what schizophrenia is by mental health professionals, it sounds alien to me.
 

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It seems that mental health professionals have quite a bit of trouble defining things (which is not that surprising). I remember reading some definitions from DSM some time ago and it seemed that many behaviours/conditions were classified as disorders (or not) purely on the basis whether they bothered the subject or not.

The process described in your quite seems to fit more with a DSM category "Religious or Spiritual Problems". I don't know to what extent DSM should be treated seriously, but it indicates the range and fluid nature of such diagnoses. On the other hand, I have read some descriptions of psychosis by people who suffered it's episodes, and many of them are quite terrifying:
It makes it hard to tell what is real and what is not. It is pain. It is fear. It is finding yourself on the floor, in tears and a total mess. It is screaming for help when it touches you. It is having nightmares an entire year later, reliving every moment. It is not fun, not pleasant and should not be romanticized.
...
It is death and pain. It is seeing dead people you care about. It is having those dead people tell you to kill yourself and join them. It is not beautiful. It is not romantic.
I am not writing from experience, but I can't imagine these kinds of experiences being positive in any way. And it doesn't sound like anything described in your quote. So maybe these are two different things or maybe there is a spectrum.
 

Pionart

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It seems that mental health professionals have quite a bit of trouble defining things (which is not that surprising). I remember reading some definitions from DSM some time ago and it seemed that many behaviours/conditions were classified as disorders (or not) purely on the basis whether they bothered the subject or not.

The process described in your quite seems to fit more with a DSM category "Religious or Spiritual Problems". I don't know to what extent DSM should be treated seriously, but it indicates the range and fluid nature of such diagnoses. On the other hand, I have read some descriptions of psychosis by people who suffered it's episodes, and many of them are quite terrifying:

I am not writing from experience, but I can't imagine these kinds of experiences being positive in any way. And it doesn't sound like anything described in your quote. So maybe these are two different things or maybe there is a spectrum.

Well, my experiences match up with what I quoted, but don't match up with what you quoted, so I guess it varies greatly with the individual.

--

I also want to add, that many so-called schizophrenics are medicated against their will. These are people who find the effects of the medication far more distressing than whatever is happening to their psyche as a result of the journey through stages of psychosis, but because of the way the system is set up (which basically classes spiritual experience and journeying as a - literally, a - disease, and seeks to suppress all manifestations of this rather than helping it to occur naturally) these people are artificially prevented from being able to carry out the process. Like, you know how in that quote it says something about reaching a final step of basically overcoming the ego? Well, when someone presents to the mental health system as going through this journey, the medications they are put on prevent them from ever reaching that stage - it is essentially the creation of a mental illness that wasn't originally there, done in the name of preserving the status quo. The "help" is not actual help, it is, in essence, a suppression of the person, which they have no control of, because there are all kinds of systems like the law working to keep this monstrosity going the way it's going.

I realise that this discussion has gone way off on a tangent, but I felt it important to say.


Oh, and regarding the why of why things are done how they are, I can't say I understand it, but it's probably very similar to the reason why research into psychedelics is suppressed. All I can say is: something about going against the status quo, and threatening the structure of power as it currently is. Too many people becoming spiritually liberated, and soon all of society will be spiritually liberated, and that is not something that the current powers want at all, because it would essentially mean the collapse of the way they're running things, and that is highly threatening to them. Does that sound like psychotic/paranoid mumbo-jumbo? Well, it would certainly be scoffed at as being so, but it's how things are, to the best of my understanding.
 

Mechnick

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What's the fucking diametric mind?

charles-bukowski.jpg


This damn country doesn't know how to speak anymore.
 

Gunboat Diplomat

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I also want to add, that many so-called schizophrenics are medicated against their will. These are people who find the effects of the medication far more distressing than whatever is happening to their psyche as a result of the journey through stages of psychosis, but because of the way the system is set up (which basically classes spiritual experience and journeying as a - literally, a - disease, and seeks to suppress all manifestations of this rather than helping it to occur naturally) these people are artificially prevented from being able to carry out the process. Like, you know how in that quote it says something about reaching a final step of basically overcoming the ego? Well, when someone presents to the mental health system as going through this journey, the medications they are put on prevent them from ever reaching that stage - it is essentially the creation of a mental illness that wasn't originally there, done in the name of preserving the status quo. The "help" is not actual help, it is, in essence, a suppression of the person, which they have no control of, because there are all kinds of systems like the law working to keep this monstrosity going the way it's going.
Whether people are being medicated against their will or not, we tend to rely on medication too much. And not only in mental health care. It seems that term schizophrenia really covers several different things and probably approach should be different depending on the root cause.


Oh, and regarding the why of why things are done how they are, I can't say I understand it, but it's probably very similar to the reason why research into psychedelics is suppressed. All I can say is: something about going against the status quo, and threatening the structure of power as it currently is. Too many people becoming spiritually liberated, and soon all of society will be spiritually liberated, and that is not something that the current powers want at all, because it would essentially mean the collapse of the way they're running things, and that is highly threatening to them. Does that sound like psychotic/paranoid mumbo-jumbo? Well, it would certainly be scoffed at as being so, but it's how things are, to the best of my understanding.
This part however I find unconvincing. Not because I trust powers to be. It's just that it's unlikely a threat to the status quo. There are not enough people with schizophrenia symptoms, even if some of them are on a spiritual journey. Consider that in the US about half of the people with severe mental issues are not being treated. They are not being medicated, forcefully or not. Hardly a sign of an establishment running scared of them. If anything, just not caring.
 

Pionart

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This part however I find unconvincing. Not because I trust powers to be. It's just that it's unlikely a threat to the status quo. There are not enough people with schizophrenia symptoms, even if some of them are on a spiritual journey. Consider that in the US about half of the people with severe mental issues are not being treated. They are not being medicated, forcefully or not. Hardly a sign of an establishment running scared of them. If anything, just not caring.

It's just that I struggle to understand why forced medication is even a thing. The studies I've seen suggest it doesn't help the people with the supposed illness, so when I try to understand why it is, that's the best I can come up with. It does my head in.
 

Gunboat Diplomat

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It's just that I struggle to understand why forced medication is even a thing. The studies I've seen suggest it doesn't help the people with the supposed illness, so when I try to understand why it is, that's the best I can come up with. It does my head in.

Yes, I agree. Maybe with the exception of some extreme situations when someone endangers others. To be honest, I have thought that forced medication was pretty much a thing of the past. I don't know, maybe it's not over yet, but I think the general trend is for people to have more say about their medical treatment. Where I live, the government wanted to close a mental hospital some years ago. They had to back out of that (they still reduced the number of beds, I think) because of the public outcry.
 

ceecee

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Consider that in the US about half of the people with severe mental issues are not being treated. They are not being medicated, forcefully or not. Hardly a sign of an establishment running scared of them. If anything, just not caring.

I would say it's higher to much higher than half. They're not being medicated, they're not anything. Many are in jail as that seems to double as a treatment facility and others are unaware. Because they have never been seen by a doctor of any kind, let alone a mental health professional. Socially it's still treated as a taboo, male culture is ridiculously stupid about it much of the time, women chalk it up to the myriad of other things and health care coverage well....we don't need to get into how barriers to care are purposely placed by the insurance companies and their lobbyists as well as the pharma and their lobbyists pushing drugs over therapy.
 
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