Bringing you out of your shell

[substitute]

Probably would help if you had access to better water; sewage is not fun swimming in.

That's deep too, but a tricky path to navigate if you go down it, without falling down the slippery slope of "it's not me, it's all these idiots around me, I just need to go to a new place, this place, that place and everything will be fine"... failing to realize people are people wherever you go and if you've trouble with people in one place you're likely to anywhere... number of times I had to run away and start over before I realized the problem was me and my fucking shell...

 

[runvardh]

I like being picky, I've managed good quality friends that way. Ones I actually desire to spend my limited energy on. And no, I have not required some E friend to introduce me

 

[substitute]

haha cool! you know I absolutely HATE introducing people? It's like totally sticking my neck out for someone... dammit, I won't introduce anyone unless I figure it's likely to have any good come of it... I hate being remembered as the one who brought the social retard to the party that brought everyone down or the one people think twice about inviting "in case he brings that moron with him" hahaha... so there you go, if I introduce you to anyone it's genuine, cos I actually like you and want you to join us, not an act of pity lol

 

[Haphazard]

It's kind of funny because people have a tendency to gravitate towards me on their own.

And... well, that I wasn't even talking about being social.

 

[runvardh]

Never really looked at it as an act of pitty; I'm just able to sniff out what I like, what I don't like and approach the former on my own energy. It can be a bit judgemental and cruel if you actually look into my thought process, but I figure "that's life".

 

[runvardh]

It's kind of funny because people have a tendency to gravitate towards me on their own.

And... well, that I wasn't even talking about being social.

You must be an interesting person, or just freaky enough to warrent investigation.

 

[Haphazard]

You must be an interesting person, or just freaky enough to warrent investigation.

I get that all the time.

 

[runvardh]

I get that all the time.

Also, if I remember right, you're female which will also afford you some interest points no matter how much of a recluse you try to be. That is unless you pull some kind of psycho bitch act about once every few weeks to scare everyone. That would take quite a bit of energy, though, I'd think.

 

[colmena]

This is an extraordinary position to be in.

Just to maintain yourself, just to keep your eyes open, requires an enormous inner strength.

And yet you see quite clearly - your vision is not clouded.

You rest, though, in a very old tradition. That is all around you but remains unseen.

And it is a tradition that welcomes you with delight. Because this tradition can breathe in you.

With every breath you take, you bring the tradition alive; yet you won't tickle it under the ears or take it for a walk. It must trail after you - unacknowledged - eyes downcast - hoping you will give a sign of recognition.

It is almost as though the whole world is holding its breath waiting for you to breathe.

While you, in your ineffable politeness, are waiting for the world to breathe first.

I had to let this simmer for a while. You have a way of breaking me out of my escapism. I thought, and played, and watched Bruce Parry have ayahuasca induced spiritual visions, and also just stared into the eyes of your avatar for a while. And now I'm thinking, and noticing how the skin on my hand is made up of lots of triangles.

But I do have an arrogant sense of wisdom; that by my own logic, I shouldn't/cannot have. And doubt is crippling when you wish to share with the world.

Yet I am the hypocrite, as it is others' imposition and judgment that I fear the most. I need to be able to trust humanity before I can feel a sense of peace and freedom.

I can't help but outsource my shell. Perhaps my vision is not quite so clear.

 

[01011010]

I like being picky, I've managed good quality friends that way. Ones I actually desire to spend my limited energy on. And no, I have not required some E friend to introduce me

Yes, indeed.

 

[prplchknz]

Like Fe people you mean? I figure it's because they actually really attach to people so easily/quickly, they actually really can care about someone and want to see them and miss them and stuff even if they've only known them like a month. Always seems odd to me when I get people like that attaching to me because I just find I'm at a loss as to explain how on earth or why on earth this person keeps asking my opinions on this or that or why they call me to go on a trip with them or something, rather than any of their many other friends that they've known for much longer. I also find it difficult to determine whether/when it's "my place" to start doing stuff like helping, offering help or initiating discussions about personal areas of their life, like at what point do I cease to be the noob in their life and become somebody who's officially a close enough friend to do these things without seeming to be acting out of place or coming on too strong?

I get people doing those things with me sometimes, WAY before I consider them even a friend, let alone a close one... in fact sometimes I barely consider them an acquaintance before they're calling me their best friend... very odd...
(then again I do have attachment issues, i even question sometimes whether I'm actually even attached to my own family )

that answers a question what type my best friend is. she is defiently Fe dom.

 

[Jack Flak]

that answers a question what type my best friend is. she is defiently Fe dom.

If it happens all the time, possibly. Once every few years, could even be INTP.

 

[prplchknz]

If it happens all the time, possibly. Once every few years, could even be INTP.

nope all the time. plus she calls me weekly to make sure I'm still alive, and constantly tells me how much I mean to her, and can't wait til I come home again.personally I find it annoying. And I get accused of not telling her how I feel enough. But I show her, but she wants me to tell her.

 

[Jack Flak]

I meant to say does she act this way with more than one or two people? It seems that's probably what you're getting at, and if so: Hey, that's no INTP!

 

[Mole]

But I do have an arrogant sense of wisdom; that by my own logic, I shouldn't/cannot have.

Well, I am partisan. I take the side of your wisdom and execrate your logic.

Look how wrong your logic is - it says your wisdom is arrogant - this is merely an insult - it is not even dressed up as logic - your logic is a fraud.

Why take any notice of fraudulent logic?

No, rather trust your wisdom.

Your wisdom has flexibility and depth and sensitivity - you can trust it.

And it is also humourous as well - so you can trust it and enjoy it.

And as you share your wisdom with us, we will enjoy it as well.

I already enjoy it.

Victor.

 

[Condor]

To be sigged.

Wow - glad you liked it.

I concur with this. This is also my experience.
When I've had a friend whom I've noticed is quite shy, my first thought is to figure out whether he's happy that way, first off. Then, if it transpires that maybe he is a bit on the lonely side and would like to be a bit more confident socially, the LAST thing I do is say to him "you should come out of your shell" or "just get out there and MEET PEOPLE and it'll come naturally" and that sorta crap.
If someone lacks confidence it's often because they haven't had a big enough sample of people responding to them positively. Accepting them
So my thing that I do is I just accept them. I don't say "I'm accepting you as a PROJECT" but "I accept you as a human being, sane, reasonably intelligent and able to make your own decisions".
Often by simply just having someone around who accepts them for who they are, doesn't judge them, likes to hang out with them and doesn't try to change them, this can cause a person to change from the inside of their own accord, change in the sense of become more confident in themselves, and I've noticed most of the people I've known like this have gradually become more outgoing or at least less anxious.
And many of them have said to me subsequently that it was me simply accepting them as they were that gave them the vote of confidence in their worth as a person being something others could perceive or appreciate.

FFS, just let the guy hang out, let him do what he likes doing. Don't drag him out and try to convert him into a mini-you. If you're doing it for him, rather than for your own gratification, this should make all the difference.

After reading the posts, I had to re-read this one. If someone "accepts you for who you are" and that acceptance leads to them changing, how can you accept them for who they were versus who they have become?

I'm trying not to get too deep here (and am probably going to fail miserably) but does acceptance matter? Do (the majority of) people really live their lives with acceptance of others in mind? Am I really missing the boat that badly?

When someone asks me "what do you think?" my initial response is "what do you care?". I know the reaction that gets, but is my perception of others enough to have an effect on what they do? If so, are they being honest with themselves? Or are they acting on the perceptions of others?

It's difficult to put into words, but if people can't be counted on to act honestly, then why would anyone want to interact with them at all? Is the person who "came out of their shell" (willingly or otherwise) still the same person? If I know someone who acted one way and then changed, I have to believe either the "old" or "new" version of the person was/is disingenuous. I would find it extremely difficult to interact with that person.

 

[substitute]

After reading the posts, I had to re-read this one. If someone "accepts you for who you are" and that acceptance leads to them changing, how can you accept them for who they were versus who they have become?

Because who they become is a product of their own choices, and consistent with who they were. IOW they're the same person, just more able to be that person around others. They've simply learned a new skill. Plus, when I say I accept people, I mean I accept them ALL, WHOEVER they are, it's not conditional. Trust me, in prison chaplaincy this concept takes on whole new meanings!!

This is why I advocate letting people make their own decisions rather than forcing them, because if you force them, then the end result is not authentic and doesn't integrate properly within their true personality.

It's difficult to put into words, but if people can't be counted on to act honestly, then why would anyone want to interact with them at all? Is the person who "came out of their shell" (willingly or otherwise) still the same person? If I know someone who acted one way and then changed, I have to believe either the "old" or "new" version of the person was/is disingenuous. I would find it extremely difficult to interact with that person.

See, that's the kind of judgement that makes people nervous. The person isn't deliberately hiding their true nature in order to deceive you. But bad past experiences can leave scars on people so that certain situations trigger nervous emotional reactions and they find it difficult to trust YOU not to judge them or reject them if they let their true selves out.

Bully for you if the opinion of others is so unimportant to you, if you can maintain a high self opinion despite no (or contrary) feedback from the outside world as to the validity of this opinion. But for us mortals, we need a bit of reassurance now and then. Some people err on the side of arrogance in their self-image, whilst I feel most err on the side of excessive humility. Except maybe teenage boys... lol

There have been times in my life when my self-esteem has been so shot down by bullying and various failures, all that kept me from giving up on myself entirely was the knowledge that one or two really awesome people accepted me and kept believing in me, so I figured if they were willing to be my friends then I couldn't be all that bad.

People grow and learn with time as new knowledge and understanding comes to them through experience (or other means). This *is* a universal principle. People who can't handle the idea of other people changing and view it as some sort of dishonesty often contribute to the fear of negative reactions holding a lot of people back from improving their lives. With that attitude, you're basically forbidding a person from improving. Is that rational?

 

[Condor]

I understand that the "old" version and "new" version of a person are the same person, and that most could still accept the person in spite of the changes. If the fact that I don't need "reassurance" from others to be happy with myself sets me up as "immortal" in the eyes of others, fine. But is the reassurance of another human being really worth that much that a person would be afraid to let their "true selves" out for fear of being judged by someone else? That's what I can't understand. Why would anyone ascribe so much power to someone else?

Your right, forbidding someone from improving - or even changing - is irrational. But is it rational to not improve oneself because someone else might not like it? I don't think I'm forbidding anyone from doing anything. If someone is going to worry about how I feel if they change, and then don't because of their perceptions about my response (or judgment), is that something I can be responsible for? I am responsible for my own actions and judgements, but isn't everyone else then responsible for their own as well?

This is what I find disingenuous. When people behave differently to seek reassurance is that honest? To themselves? If people simply acted who they are without regard to "fitting in" or being accepted pr being judged, wouldn't the people who like them then like them for who they really are?

Isn't that the point?

 

[substitute]

Uh, yeah the point is that nobody's perfect...

And yes, this might come as news to you, but an awful lot of people really are in great need of reassurance... in fact, quite often the 'shell' or 'wall' that people surround themselves with comes from having been knocked back, criticized, misunderstood and judged so often that they just can't bear to lay themselves on the line to that stuff any more, so they remain cautious and overly reserved in the presence of others.

Also, a lot of the time people are quite confused and they're not sure whether what they want to do would BE an improvement. If they believe they're inadequate in some way and not worthy of other people's respect (due to bullying or other factors), they might not feel that it *is* an improvement to come out of their shell and be more outgoing, or to share their thoughts with others. In fact it's often largely due to this belief that they build the shell in the first place - in the belief that they're protecting a) themselves from more hurt and b) others from the burdens of having to put up with their awful personality (as they see it).

And just to complicate matters more, people are often also in denial of how much reassurance they actually need, or how much others' opinions even affect them. This is usually going on subconsciously, so the person isn't even aware of it in order to make conscious decisions about the rightness or wrongness, honesty or dishonesty of it or to stop it from happening. The self-doubt and low self-esteem is very often covered up and overcompensated for by displays of fake arrogance, aggression, disdain for humanity and "I don't care!" declarations...

It's right that you're responsible for your own actions and judgements, but then this also means that we're all also at least partially responsible for the effects our actions and judgements have on others... which is why I'd say it's important to ensure, before having a strong or negative visible reaction to somebody, that your judgement is indeed justified. Not being able really to ever be sure about that, IMO, since we can't read others' minds, I'd say it's more constructive to reserve judgement.

I guess I just favour compassion over judgement... but that's not just words or some written ideal to me, it's a method or approach that's proven itself over and over in my work as being highly effective at helping people over their social anxieties... the effects of which I've observed in contrast with 'hardline' methods, backed by the mentality you describe, taken by others in similar work, and the low success rates these people get...

 

[TickTock]

Uh, yeah the point is that nobody's perfect...

And yes, this might come as news to you, but an awful lot of people really are in great need of reassurance... in fact, quite often the 'shell' or 'wall' that people surround themselves with comes from having been knocked back, criticized, misunderstood and judged so often that they just can't bear to lay themselves on the line to that stuff any more, so they remain cautious and overly reserved in the presence of others.

Everybody goes through this ritual, being tested by others. People who develop a shell do so because they have not developed any other strategy for defending themselves.