Bringing you out of your shell

[substitute]

I'm beginning to come out of my shell, I don't know what changed. But I think being forced to take care of issues by calling helped alot.

Yeah that was a big hurdle for me too, years ago, when I left home I had to confront the whole 'using the telephone' thing to get my shit together. I still really hate calling to sort bills and stuff but it's for a different reason now, I'm not shy any more it's just that the companies are incompetent and the call centre people are usually badly trained and it's just frustrating dealing with them lol

Though I will still say I'm an introvert because though I often feel fine now around large groups of people I find my self yawning about an hour or two in and just needing to find a quiet spot.

Yeah I don't mean to seem like I'm saying people can be turned into extraverts, I wasn't turned into one, I was one all the time, I wasn't avoiding people because of needing time alone to recharge my batteries and stuff, the time I spent alone didn't make me feel good at all and I was depressed all the time. I was only avoiding people because of social anxiety and now that anxiety is largely 'cured', socializing energizes me totally as it would've done before if not for the issues I had.

But even introverts need friends and people to relate to, in smaller numbers and shorter periods than extraverts, granted, but all the same, the principle of needing to overcome anxiety applies... if anything my story just goes to show that extraverts can be just as much victims of social anxiety and often have to go through similarly painful processes in order to be 'trained'

entropie - your story echoes my own in that it took a total breakdown and then the drive to 'come back' stronger, to give you the will and whatever, to push yourself 'out there'.

 

[Orangey]

No, their methods didn't work in any way at all, I thought I made that quite clear - their methods caused me to almost have a total breakdown and isolate myself more than ever before, for a long time. I can't think how that could be construed as me saying they were in any way, directly or indirectly, successful!!

There isn't a moral of my story lol I'm not trying to say what always does or doesn't work. Unless the moral is that whilst some things work for some people, those same things can be disastrous when applied to people for whom they're not suited. But I wasn't really trying to impress a moral so much as asking for other people's experiences.

Oh okay, I misunderstood your post then . I read it as saying that while their methods were damaging in the short run, it prompted you to eventually make a change where you probably wouldn't have before (before the whole ordeal, that is). Sorry.

 

[substitute]

Oh okay, I misunderstood your post then . I read it as saying that while their methods were damaging in the short run, it prompted you to eventually make a change where you probably wouldn't have before (before the whole ordeal, that is). Sorry.

Ah right. No, I did actually start making moves on my own before the 'ordeal' haha, but as soon as I hit an obstacle these guys decided it was time for me to receive some, ahem, expert guidance... it's not just that their methods of socializing didn't suit me, but the ends, not just the means, were something that were not suited to my character. They seemed to want me to reach a sort of Fi-underpinned relationship with the general public and individual people, that was their ideal, it was where they wanted me to be headed and it was for signs of this that they were looking in order to judge what level of success I had achieved.

I later took a more Ti/Fe approach... it wasn't Ne that was an issue for me because I didn't really have much trouble in perceiving what was going on, but it was my judging functions, knowing which ones to use and in what way, so to speak, that I needed to work on. Ti and Fe were more natural for me and in line with the sort of relationship that I wanted and was most capable of, with other people, as opposed to the Fi/Te one they were pushing me towards...

 

[Kyrielle]

Well, I've had people try to tell me what it was to be confident and relaxed and social, but the way they did it never worked. I had someone tell me I must always, always, always formally introduce myself, shake hands, ask how they are...all that. Which does not work for me and throws me off (I will: forget my own name, not ask their name, forget to shake their hand, not ask how they are in response to them asking me how I am...). I realise it's somewhat required in business relations, but, dammit, most social relations are not business, and trying to box them in as such just makes the situation unbearably awkward for me.

I had another person tell me to go join a club, which might have worked, except I was looking at interfacing with more than three people at a time (and when you've gotten to be quite shy, anything more than three people is very, very daunting...actually it still is sometimes). I would have been sensory overload the entire time and spent most of my time hiding in the back feeling miserable.

What ended up working was replicating in my head what it felt like to feel confident and relaxed and what it felt like to laugh and enjoy myself around one person. I found that if I made myself remember that feeling and then mentally apply it like an overlay to a situation involving multiple people, that it was indeed possible to feel completely at ease and able to be myself in all my imperfections. This revalation is very recent, though. I've put it through some practical testing, and it's worked so far. However, I think the idea comes apart at the seams with large groups of people. I suspect it always will, and that's okay. This also doesn't change that I can only take small bites of time with groups of people before I start getting tired (as is evidenced if I'm sitting on a couch...I gradually become more slouched and horizontal the more tired I am until I'm eventually almost sliding off onto the floor).

 

[LostInNerSpace]

Reading the Jack Flak vs Mighty Mouse thread in the Graveyard triggered some thoughts...

A few years ago, when I was just beginning to start a new life, from previously being very isolated and having next to no social experience, skills or confidence, I had an ENFP brother and an ESFP friend who took it on themselves to bring me out of my shell... and their methods ended up driving me totally crazy until I finally exploded and sorta had to fire them both from my life temporarily and closet myself away again for several months.

Then I emerged again, gradually, and did things my way... and within a year it started to become clear that I had all the time been an extravert, just a severely stunted one... and I made such huge progress that by the end of that year people were not believing me when I said I related to them if they told me they had social anxiety.

Hmm... I've no doubt that if I hadn't stood up to my self-appointed mentors and carried on doing things their way, then to this day I'd probably still be riddled with anxieties and complexes... in fact, one of the reasons why I hermit-ed myself for so long after my explosion was because I had so many NEW anxieties that had only been put in place BY the things they put me through.

I know they only meant well, but the effect of their good intentions was disastrous. The amazing thing is, they still to this day don't acknowledge any fault in this, and hold that their methods were 'fine', and the only problem was me. Despite the fact that, through different methods, I've become very much a social creature!

Does anyone else have experience of being forced out of their shell? Did it work for anyone? Anyone have experience of doing it for themselves?

With a little commentary your post could be used to answer this thread:

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/other-psychology-topics/8640-what-about-hypnosis.html

 

[substitute]

Well, I've had people try to tell me what it was to be confident and relaxed and social, but the way they did it never worked. I had someone tell me I must always, always, always formally introduce myself, shake hands, ask how they are...all that. Which does not work for me and throws me off (I will: forget my own name, not ask their name, forget to shake their hand, not ask how they are in response to them asking me how I am...). I realise it's somewhat required in business relations, but, dammit, most social relations are not business, and trying to box them in as such just makes the situation unbearably awkward for me.

Right. And y'know, when I meet people who are like that, I tend to find them really kinda weird, their businesslike, super-polite approach sorta creeps me out a bit and I can't help questioning their sincerity... so it's not necessarily good advice either, even if you can follow it successfully...

What ended up working was replicating in my head what it felt like to feel confident and relaxed and what it felt like to laugh and enjoy myself around one person. I found that if I made myself remember that feeling and then mentally apply it like an overlay to a situation involving multiple people, that it was indeed possible to feel completely at ease and able to be myself in all my imperfections.

That's a superb idea!!

However, I think the idea comes apart at the seams with large groups of people. I suspect it always will, and that's okay.

yeah, I tend to be the other way round... my risk is that I end up talking too much and then worrying that I've accidentally dominated the conversation and people think I'm some sorta ego maniac or something... so big groups are more comfortable for me because it's more likely that there'll be enough other people who are willing to talk a lot and interrupt me and stuff, so I talk about the right amount. In smaller groups though, I can feel quite sorta awkward because I can find myself with nobody else there who's comfy with talking much or interrupting me or whatever, it's easier to end up talking too much and thinking afterwards... I dunno, somehow it often seems to me that people find it easier to rapid fire/throw things out in a big group where it's all sorta multi-energy kinda thing, a brainstorming vibe can occur more easily, whilst in smaller groups people revert back to politeness and not interrupting, and I can realize with horror all of a sudden that these guys have just sat and let me talk solidly for ages... lol

 

[Haphazard]

I can't speak in groups of more than three people.

My voice doesn't carry. I get trampled.

 

[Kyrielle]

yeah, I tend to be the other way round... my risk is that I end up talking too much and then worrying that I've accidentally dominated the conversation and people think I'm some sorta ego maniac or something... so big groups are more comfortable for me because it's more likely that there'll be enough other people who are willing to talk a lot and interrupt me and stuff, so I talk about the right amount. In smaller groups though, I can feel quite sorta awkward because I can find myself with nobody else there who's comfy with talking much or interrupting me or whatever, it's easier to end up talking too much and thinking afterwards... I dunno, somehow it often seems to me that people find it easier to rapid fire/throw things out in a big group where it's all sorta multi-energy kinda thing, a brainstorming vibe can occur more easily, whilst in smaller groups people revert back to politeness and not interrupting, and I can realize with horror all of a sudden that these guys have just sat and let me talk solidly for ages... lol

(Am experiencing a deja vu of having a deja vu of this conversation before. Mind bending...)

Anyway. I think in smaller groups there's sort of this expectation/natural inclination for a more turn-based kind of discussion. Since there are fewer people, there's more time and energy to the conversation. I think there might also be the "bursts of talking and then abrupt silence" thing going on with small groups. Where in the abrupt silence, everyone contemplates the next thing to say, and then another burst comes with another topic or a related topic then silence again. Sort of like ocean breakers.

Where with larger groups, there's a consistent stream of discussion because the moments of silence are not synchronised with the group as a whole. You may have three people talking excitedly, and then they go quiet but immediately two other people pick up the slack, then another group, then the first group again. Of course it's not nearly that organised, just there's less energy being put into the group by each person so the discussion is more dispersed and consistent.

I guess you could also relate it to mob mentality/hive-think. In that in a larger group, people are less likely to be polite and not interrupt because the responisibility for each person is dispersed throughout the group. Maybe in a larger group, the entirety of the group acts as a sort of external brain. Whereas in a smaller group you have each person's brain connecting to each others (and sometimes you have people who sort of pair off without consciously meaning to).


This could all be hogwash.

 

[substitute]

I dunno... I just find that for me, personally, it's sorta a load off my shoulders that, should I fail to realize that I've been talking too much or that I'm rambling, there's bound to be someone else present in such a large group who has the nerve to point it out lol

This ESFP guy used to keep inviting me out to places 'where people are', without really giving much thought as to what kinds of people they were, what kinds of events they were... the trouble with the things he dragged me to was that I ended up feeling not only socially inadequate but just generally inadequate as well, because his friends are largely high achievers, people of high social status and stuff, and of course it hardly did wonders for my confidence when the infamous "so what do you do?" question came and I had to say "nothing really, I don't work, I'm a single parent".

In my case I also had the issue that 90% of my past is off limits for polite conversation. A guy mentioning that he went to an all girls' school, or relating to the experience some woman is talking about regarding giving birth, or having been married to a man... and without even going into gender territory there's my criminal past... these things don't go down very well... this is still an issue for me and I guess it always will be. But as time's gone by since I began my new life and I've built up a body of experiences and interests to talk about, I can generally redirect things away from talking about my past. It's a pain to have to do that as I'd always rather be open about it. I generally am in fact, about my shady/criminal/homeless past, cos you can pull it off with a "but I've turned around now and am a model citizen" and people applaud you for that, generally. But the gender stuff will never be smalltalk material!!

This was just one of the things those guys just didn't take into account when pushing me out to socialize.

 

[runvardh]

I am currently doing what Jack Flack has listed as a good thing to try. Aikido is slowly helping me interact with other people and the more I go, the better I get to know them. Also I get to improve myself with the help of others and in the end I may get a friend or two out of it. I'm also starting to take continued education classes where I have a strength that just needs application to bloom. I can admit to a little desire to be looked at in awe at my skills.

Some of the social situations my roommate has tried to get me into has, on the other hand, failed as I really couldn't connect with a lot of those people. This resulted in a lot of people just looking at me weird and further defining me as an alien.

 

[sade]

I don't have the type of shell that was initially described, at least I no longer have it. My own shell is more of a privacy thing. You know : a line in my mind over what type of tones, words, emotions, issues, things I'm comfortable expressing with xxx in xxx situation. The usual, but I'll be using the first described one in the following:

I started initially coming out of my shell after joining a small theatre group around 12 y/o. I'd had some bullying & friend issues etc. before that which had made me withdraw into my shell some more. The theatre group was a warm and comfy setting in which I didn't feel pressured into anything (well except the occational group performances), so I started opening up slowly and engaging more. Chatting with people, expressing ideas. I managed to form friendships with three people from the group that have lasted about 8 years now.

The second thing that affected me was when I got a job from a supermarket cashier/clerk, part time for a 1½ and full time for a year. That was extremely taxing, no private space (except inside my head), new people all the time, blah. But I've noticed it's helped me in dealing with complete strangers and iniating, and also bossing people around.


The funny thing is, I have a cousin & her mother who are very extroverted and view introverson as a bad thing, still pressure me into more activity or whatever and giving advice on where I should go, what I should say, what I should say. Not helping. Idiots, good meaning idiots. After that I normally need a while to clear up my head out of all the stuff they've been feeding me, the standards etc. I normally go walking alone to the downtown, and start feeling better after that. Aka braking their advice right away.

 

[prplchknz]

why do I repeatly read the title of this thread as "Bringing you to your hell" is it my subconscious telling me to fully expose myself would be a mistake or that I feel that way unknowingly? that I'm not as out of my shell as I think?

 

[LostInNerSpace]

why do I repeatly read the title of this thread as "Bringing you to your hell" is it my subconscious telling me to fully expose myself would be a mistake or that I feel that way unknowingly? that I'm not as out of my shell as I think?

Just a wild guess might be that somehow mirror neurons in your Amyglada are wired up to anger somewhere in your sub/unconcious. Are you an angry person?

 

[prplchknz]

Just a wild guess might be that somehow mirror neurons in your Amyglada are wired up to anger somewhere in your sub/unconcious. Are you an angry person?

not really. unless I'm stuck with people for longer then planned. and that's more annoyance then actual anger.

 

[kelric]

Sometimes I think that my shell isn't strong enough to *force* me to break through or abandon it, yet too strong to really allow me any sense of comfort at all in interacting with people socially - particularly when it comes to meeting new people in social situations. It's not even so much that I put a lot of effort into avoiding social situations (although I will, sometimes) - it's that I'm so rarely in a position to even *have* to. On the rare occasions when it comes up, I'm very easily overwhelmed and find myself leaving the situation.

For oh, the last 15-20 years or so, the vast majority of my friendships have been the "one of a group" types of things - classmates in college and grad school, my volleyball team(s), etc. While they lasted, they were great - but people's lives have changed, and they've largely moved on. The friendships are still there, and they're still important, but instead of seeing them 2-3 times a week, I see them 2-3 times a year... at best. I was pretty happy socially being "one of the pack" - but now that the packs are gone I'm somewhat lost, and the "shell" has become more of an issue. I'm pretty much a hermit these days.

I don't have trouble at work, or in other situations where I'm involved in some sort of activity (I don't get nervous going grocery shopping in a crowd, etc.), but I'm all business - I do my thing, then I leave. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've never had anyone really tell me that I needed to "get out of my shell" - but social anxiety, a shell, whatever, I wish I had a better way of trying to get out from underneath it.

 

[colmena]

I think life's conventions are my shell. Everything everyone does and is supposed to do feel unnatural to me. It's cyclically suppressing.

Idealism is very claustrophobic when you don't have skills.

 

[substitute]

yeah it's pretty difficult for adults to make friends anyway at least in urban Britain. Most people have their family, their friends they've known since school/college and then people they work with. If you move to a new town where you've no family or other connections and then you either don't work or have a solitary job, the only other place I can think of to meet people is church, and only about 6% of people in the UK go to church anyway so there you're stuck with people several generations older than you and they're often very cliquish and closed off to outsiders.

The pub culture is also dying (round these parts anyway), and whereas people used to spend many an evening playing darts or taking part in a pub quiz and socializing, flexi-hours has pretty much put paid to that and even when they're not working they're too tired to go out and tend to slump in front of the TV. Neighbours don't talk to each other either.

So all the traditional avenues for coming out of one's shell seem to be eroding away and it takes a very extraverted, very determined and very confident person indeed to build a social life here from nothing, as a stranger in town.

Even not as a stranger, as kelric mentioned, your old friends from school and stuff tend to also move on and become absorbed in life pursuits and you see less and less of them.

It's a lonely old world, innit?

 

[colmena]

My vision of outside my shell has very little to do with social banter, intellectual discussion, or anything the similar.

I think it's a case of mismatched culture.

 

[prplchknz]

I've never gotten those people who can make friends with out trying. I'm like do you have some hypnotic power?

 

[INA]

I think it's a case of mismatched culture.

Should you be rollicking with the pygmies or something?