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  1. #81
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithium View Post
    Everybody goes through this ritual, being tested by others. People who develop a shell do so because they have not developed any other strategy for defending themselves.
    Agreed. They need help with finding or developing another strategy, or even noticing they have this one and understanding why it's counterproductive and what can be done.

    IOW there's a shitload of psychological stuff going on here that needs unravelling, preferably with the aid of counsellors but failing that, just getting time and space to do so with informal support can help. It's a long and painful process. Not something that can be simply skipped, and solved by being dragged along to a party and told to "just go up and talk to people".
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  2. #82
    Mud and rain and chaos... TickTock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Agreed. They need help with finding or developing another strategy, or even noticing they have this one and understanding why it's counterproductive and what can be done.

    IOW there's a shitload of psychological stuff going on here that needs unravelling, preferably with the aid of counsellors but failing that, just getting time and space to do so with informal support can help. It's a long and painful process. Not something that can be simply skipped, and solved by being dragged along to a party and told to "just go up and talk to people".
    Yes, it could be potentially damaging. The person might retreat further in to themselves. It all depends how much of a wall they have built. If it isn't so much they might well realize that the room full of people is actually not that bad after all then it might temporary solve the problem. The problem will arise only when they are verbally attacked in someway or put in the spot light and they don't know how to respond, society might then reject them and then they retreat again.

    But are you sure counseling is a progressive step? You can only learn to swim by being in the water.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithium View Post
    But are you sure counseling is a progressive step? You can only learn to swim by being in the water.
    Yeah, well a good counsellor would be there to help them motivate themselves to get into the water or to figure out and realize why they're afraid. It's a phobia, basically... the causes of the fear need to be addressed first, in many cases, IMO, before confronting the fear itself. I find that in most cases, having realized and analyzed the causes of the fear usually makes the fear go away anyway by itself... they're raring to get out and give it a go once they realize the fear was based on stuff other than any actual genuine evidence that everyone hates them or that they're worthless or whatever...

    My experience is sorta varied, in one respect I've supported people informally as a friend, but on the other hand I've also taken counselling training and had quite a bit of experience with varied cases, some pretty acute and some less severe, through chaplaincy and community support/mentoring work. The lines are blurry because of course I can't help applying what I know from my training and work experience to my friendships... and vice versa... I'm a bit like people who see no distinction between sacred and secular... to me there's no distinction between work and leisure, since I don't get paid for my work anyway...
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  4. #84
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    Agreed - nobody is perfect - but we unfortunately live in a society that preaches perfection. And the fact that people try to attain that perfection at the cost of their own selves is unfortunate.

    Agreed - the wall or shell is put up when people get rejected or knocked back causes people to sometimes to not lay themselves on the line for fear of judgement, but if - as a society - we stop preaching the need to fit in and to celebrate the individual then what would need to be feared? Being different isn't a sin. It shouldn't be treated that way. Changing to simply fit in is not being true to yourself. That's all I'm trying to say. But the perception that everyone must dress a certain way, have a certain look, live their lives a certain way or else they will be rejected or knocked back is the problem - not the fact that one person or another may not like what someone does or becomes. If someone doesn't like what someone else does or becomes, it isn't the end of the world.

    With regard to visible negative judgements, again - agreed. I guess not interracting with a person is a visible negative judgement.

    Looking back, I count three times I've agreed. Perhaps it's not the fact that I find it extremely difficult to interract with people who change.

    Perhaps it's more to the point that, given how much emphasis in the world is put on "reassurance" and I don't really care about that, I simply find it extremely difficult to interract with people.

  5. #85
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    I agree that society's unrealistic ideals is the problem but here here's where I'm jumping from Te to Fi in one fell swoop hehehe... society is made up of individuals, and it's the reactions and interactions that each individual has with other individuals that forms their perception both of society and of what society expects/requires of them.

    So... by a few individuals proving to somebody that society isn't to be feared or resented so much, because there are people in it that are non-judgemental, accepting, reasonable, who are willing to befriend them and who enjoy their company and are interested in what they have to say, this can cause a person to interact more positively with society, which in turn gradually makes society a better place...


    edit - oh, plus I'd also venture to theorize that the unrealistic ideals of society at large stem at least partially from a tendency of individuals to prefer to focus on and judge other's shortcomings and to use the observation of flaws in others to bolster themselves up ("I'm a valid person and you're not because you cheated on your lover and I didn't") than to admit to and fix their own... ("I'm a valid person because I'm a human being despite my flaws, which means I have to forgive your flaws as well if you're to see me as valid")...hence the dominance of schadenfreude in the majority of the public's interest in celebrities...
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I agree that society's unrealistic ideals is the problem but here here's where I'm jumping from Te to Fi in one fell swoop hehehe... society is made up of individuals, and it's the reactions and interactions that each individual has with other individuals that forms their perception both of society and of what society expects/requires of them.

    So... by a few individuals proving to somebody that society isn't to be feared or resented so much, because there are people in it that are non-judgemental, accepting, reasonable, who are willing to befriend them and who enjoy their company and are interested in what they have to say, this can cause a person to interact more positively with society, which in turn gradually makes society a better place...


    edit - oh, plus I'd also venture to theorize that the unrealistic ideals of society at large stem at least partially from a tendency of individuals to prefer to focus on and judge other's shortcomings and to use the observation of flaws in others to bolster themselves up ("I'm a valid person and you're not because you cheated on your lover and I didn't") than to admit to and fix their own... ("I'm a valid person because I'm a human being despite my flaws, which means I have to forgive your flaws as well if you're to see me as valid")...
    (Would it be wrong of me to agree yet again?) Agreed, but conditionally. If the individuals in the society worried less about whether someone is judgemental, or non-accepting or unreasonable and just live their lives, perhaps the same thing could be accomplished. And they would be able to attain that goal by themselves. Self-assurance versus reassurance.

  7. #87
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    OMG alert the press... an ENTP and an ISTJ have just agreed SEVERAL TIMES IN A ROW!!!

    edit - I still think it starts with reassurance though, which should begin in the home and family. If given a strong start here, IMO, you'll be on the way to self-assurance by your 20's. If you're screwed up before you even get your formative years done with, you're gonna need that reassurance from elsewhere before you can start self-assuring.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  8. #88
    Senior Member ZiL's Avatar
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    I'm familiar with those "we need to get you out of your shell" conversations, as I was subject to them for years by my best friend and others who came within my orbit. And like you, I found that I was more successful in breaking my shell on my own than I was with the help of "mentors."

    Most of it had to do with the types of people and situations my friends dragged me into - they weren't the types of people I'd hang out with on my own volition, and the places they brought me to weren't the places I'd go to on my own volition. I'd get brought to this or that party or this or that club, and I'd be told to be confident and just make conversation, but all it would ever be was mounds of small-talk and I didn't feel like I could relate to anyone. That just made me more stubborn about reaching out. It was a misguided experiment in the end, but for the longest time, I thought my mentors were right and that that was the way I would have to learn to be over time.

    But then I went to college and got to be a free agent. And things improved. The increased population pool helps, but even better is just the wide variety of new people with whom I can make my own new first impression with, instead of having some high school stigma following me around. In fact, I hate running into people from high school at college, because I always feel that I'm two seconds away from slipping back into shyness and underconfidence.

  9. #89
    Senior Member Bella's Avatar
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    I do no longer tolerate ANYBODY telling me how to be. I have indeed perfected the Look Of Death for those who try. (and kids)
    yesiknowimamiserablegrouchnowgoawayovmeleor

    It's Mizzz ST, thank you...

  10. #90
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bella View Post
    I do no longer tolerate ANYBODY telling me how to be. I have indeed perfected the Look Of Death for those who try. (and kids)
    you still like me ?

    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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