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  1. #21
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    I'd have to think a bit about the dream piece of it, as deja vu doesn't seem to happen often for me - either that, or when it happens, I very soon forget about it so I can't think of any specific examples.

    But what I DO remember is that I tend to think it's minute sensory data in that precise moment that sets it off and makes me think it's happened before. For example, the precise angle of the sunlight -- triggers a memory of a similar moment in the past where the sunlight/lighting was exactly the same, so in that moment I confuse, or tie together, the two experiences, and associate them as the same...and then have that out-of-body feeling that I'm reliving something I've already 'forseen' or experienced (and with the sensory trigger, in a way, I have). That's the only example I can think of right now (and it's probably not a very good one).
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  2. #22
    Senior Membrane spirilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    I see what you are saying, honestly. However, in my case, I don't believe it.

    I know the dreams took place because the series of events before and after - within the dream - become very clear to me. Again, through a lot of practice and a really good memory, I'm able to remember a large portion of my dreams if I take the time to review them - I used to wake up every morning, sit up in bed, search my minds eye, and write down my dreams many years ago.

    With that said, I still believe that this is simply Ni making connections during the dream that, on occasion, come true, in detail, during the following day or two. Additionally, I think this same thing is what makes some people think they are psychic.
    Jung would call this synchronicity, and I'd call it a "type 1* synchronistic event" -- inside/outside, where an event from inside your mind (dream) corresponds strikingly well to an event outside your head, even though you know of no direct common cause between the two. That's where the explanation dives into archetypes or archetypal situations (where both your mind's dream and the external event may have been following a larger common path that both lead them to the same outcome), etc. and so forth. Honestly, calling it "Ni-inspired" sounds right to me. You could discern a common cause (might be a stretch, but still) if you looked deeply enough, but most of us have not the time. But Ni may have just done the leg-work for you.
    All this trusting, of course, that you *did* in fact have the dream in question, as Jack Flak shed into question.

    * type 1 = internal to your mind/external to your mind event, type 2 = external/external event (where something you see outside your head corresponds coincidentally-but-meaningfully to another event you see outside your head)
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  3. #23
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrielle View Post
    From what I understand, déjà vu is a phenomenon where you are remembering the event as it is happening.
    This is an interesting concept, and for some reason inspires me to relate one that has been described as people "remembering only a memory of a memory" versus accessing the original "primary recording" or something.

    Humor - a Vuja De is when you're experiencing a moment where you're absolutely sure it has never happened before.
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuranes View Post
    This is an interesting concept, and for some reason inspires me to relate one that has been described as people "remembering only a memory of a memory" versus accessing the original "primary recording" or something.

    Humor - a Vuja De is when you're experiencing a moment where you're absolutely sure it has never happened before.
    Hehe.

    If you look back on most events in your life, do you ever find yourself aware that what you're remembering is utterly different from the last time you remembered the event, but there is no record, at all, of the original memory?

    I'm not sure how explain the awareness of the lack of an original memory. Just seems like I'm painfully alert to the perception of that memory, because I know that at the time the event happened, I would not have thought of the event in such a way. Which is a little frustrating, because when I relate the memory to someone else, it changes. Hell, it changes during the course of the conversation if I am applying possible meanings to it to try and understand the reason behind the events. By the end of the conversation, the memory is completely different, but I have trouble remembering what it was originally.

    I often wonder what happens to that "primary recording." If the data in it was utterly scrapped and forgotten.
    "I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference."

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  5. #25
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrielle View Post
    I often wonder what happens to that "primary recording." If the data in it was utterly scrapped and forgotten.
    Yes, sometimes I seem to indirectly sense that something is missing. If I feel the lack strongly enough to become very conscious of it, though, I can often use that as a beginning thread to trace back to what I think is the correct memory. New theories and work suggest that our "consciousness" may be compared to a computer screen, showing only what is necessary to keep a "user" satisfied with the moment, while the actual workings of the processor are kept mostly separate. The mind can even confabulate a memory based on what it finds plausible, how much cognitive dissonance so and so will cause, and other things. It can "fill in the blank(s)", not only for "facts" remembered, but even for vision, which is how some optical illusions work as the processor feeds this to "you".

    Some interesting work by authors on the subject.
    Psyche 6(8): Review of Antonio Damasio's "The Feeling of What Happens" by Aldo Mosca
    Vilayanur Ramachandran on your mind | Video on TED.com
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
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    Thank you for the links, they were both very interesting.
    "I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference."

    Robert Frost

  7. #27
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    many times its Ni
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

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  8. #28
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    Default Groundhog Day

    Watch "Groundhog Day" - in the film, Murray plays Phil Connors, an egocentric Pittsburgh TV weatherman who, during a hated assignment covering the annual Groundhog Day event (February 2) in Punxsutawney, finds himself repeating the same day over and over again. After indulging in all manner of hedonistic pursuits, he begins to reexamine his life and priorities.



    Self-centered TV meteorologist Phil Connors, his producer Rita, and cameraman Larry from the fictional Pittsburgh television station WPBH-TV9 travel to Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania to cover the annual Groundhog Day festivities with Punxsutawney Phil for the station. Phil, who has grown tired of this assignment, grudgingly gives his report and attempts to return back to Pittsburgh when a blizzard that he predicted would miss the area has shut down the main roads, forcing Phil and his team to stay in town an extra day. Phil wakes up to find that he is reliving February 2 again; everyone else is repeating the same actions as from what he saw the day before, seemingly unaware of the time loop, though Phil remains aware of the events of the previous day. At first he is confused, but when the loop continues, he starts to try to take advantage of the situation without fear of long-term consequences, learning secrets from the town's residents, seducing women, stealing money, and driving drunk. However, attempts to get closer to Rita are repeatedly shut down. With each passage of the loop, Phil becomes despondent; during one loop, he kidnaps Punxsutawney Phil and after a long police chase, drives over a cliff, appearing to kill both Phil and the groundhog. However, Phil wakes up in the next loop and finds that nothing has changed; further attempts at suicide are just as fruitless as he continues to find himself back at the start of February 2. Phil continues to try to learn more about Rita, and when he reveals his situation to her and the knowledge he's gained about the town's residents, she opens up to him and suggests he try to use his situation to help benefit the town. Phil uses her advice and the time loop to help as many people around town as possible, as well as bettering himself such as by learning to play jazz piano and speaking French. Phil, now engrossed with the town's celebration, is able to admit his love to Rita, and she accepts and returns her love. After the evening dance, the two retire together to Phil's room. Phil wakes up the next day, and finds the time loop has broken; it is now February 3 and Rita is still in bed with him. As the team prepare to return to Pittsburgh, Phil and Rita talk about eventually settling down in Punxsutawney.

    Referring to unpleasant, unchanging, repetitive situations as "Groundhog Day" was widespread throughout the U.S. military very soon after the movie's release in February 1993. A magazine article about the aircraft carrier USS America mentions its use by sailors in September 1993. Around the same time, the movie was a favorite of soldiers in Mogadishu, who identified with the protagonist's situation. By March 1994, there was a defensive zone in Somalia called Groundhog Station. In February 1994, the crew of the USS Saratoga referred to its deployment in the Adriatic Sea, in support of Bosnia operations, as Groundhog Station. A speech by President Clinton in January 1996 specifically referred to the movie and the use of the phrase by military personnel in Bosnia. Even today in the Iraq War, "Groundhog Day" is American military slang for any day of a tour of duty in Iraq.

    A few quotes from Nietzsche to help drive the point home. A quote from "The Will To Power":

    "If the world may be thought of as a certain definite quantity of force and as a certain definite number of centers of force – and every other representation remains indefinite and therefore useless – it follows that, in the great dice game of existence, it must pass through a calculable number of combinations. In infinite time, every possible combination would at some time or another be realized; more: it would be realized an infinite number of times. And since between every combination and its next recurrence all other possible combinations would have to take place, and each of these combinations conditions the entire sequence of combinations in the same series, a circular movement of absolutely identical series is thus demonstrated: the world as a circular movement that has already repeated itself infinitely often and plays its game in infinitum."
    "What if a demon were to creep after you one night, in your loneliest loneliness, and say, 'This life which you live must be lived by you once again and innumerable times more; and every pain and joy and thought and sigh must come again to you, all in the same sequence. The eternal hourglass will again and again be turned and you with it, dust of the dust!' Would you throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse that demon? Or would you answer, 'Never have I heard anything more divine'?"

  9. #29
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    Jesus H. Copula.

  10. #30
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    Have you ever walking down a street or into a room and had a flashback of emotion. Maybe you hear some music you have not heard in while and get a flood of emotion coming back. Similarly, you might sometimes you look at a person and think, "where have I seen this person before?" Or hear a familiar sound and think, "where have I heard that before?"

    My theory about Déjà Vu is that it is a rare confluence of these events. A time when you happen to be in a setting that puts in an emotional state of the past, and at the same time you see and or hear something that looks familiar, and you may even be doing something that has a familiar feel to it. In essence, a combination of your senses are taken back in time, but not necessarily back to the same point in time. A sensory time machine if you will, but could conceivably involve familiar thoughts patterns.

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