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Birth Order and Intellectual Independence

Jack Flak

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and on a side note, not to belittle any eldest or only children posting here but being the way you are compared to your siblings (embodying the traits mentioned in the OP) is a result of several variables which can't be simplified down to mere birth order.
Indeed, that goes without saying. I attempted to isolate one variable in the equation, temporarily ignoring the others. It's difficult to do so in a subject which disallows access to pure data. It is merely meant for contemplation.
 

Night

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I like your spirit here, Jack.

Trying to develop a positive connection between birth order and personality is a curious egg to crack.

I'd say my younger brother is fat with intellectual independence, as his reticule is firmly planted on developing himself outside of mainstream academia. With this same thought in tow, I could also argue that his bullheadedness towards this end renders him strangely bereft of independence, as his attitude creates a powerful weakness to the same mainstream culture he's trying to buck.

Damn ENTJ.
 

Jack Flak

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...his reticule is firmly planted on developing himself outside of mainstream academia. With this same thought in tow, I could also argue that his bullheadedness towards this end renders him strangely bereft of independence, as his attitude creates a powerful weakness to the same mainstream culture he's trying to buck.
If I were trying to argue my case...which I may be...I would say he lacks the internal conviction I speak of. His "convictions" are somewhat based on those around him, and are therefore dependent.
 

Night

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If I were trying to argue my case...which I may be...I would say he lacks the internal conviction I speak of. His "convictions" are somewhat based on those around him, and are therefore dependent.

I like this statement.

Is it ever possible to generate thought systems that are truly independent of external convictions taught to us?
 

redacted

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I'm definitely more intellectually independent than my brother (not by that much though), but I don't think that would have changed had our genes been traded.

He's an ENTP, I'm an INFJ. I'd say it's hard to be more intellectually independent than an INxx type unless you're another INxx type.

Also, I think these results might be skewed because lots of people here are INxx.
 

563 740

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My dad was the last of 5 and far & away the most intellectually independent of the entire bunch. Sorry mang. :)
 

Night

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Would others agree that intellectual independence (such that this thread offers) is more commonly expressed in introverts than extroverts?
 

Jack Flak

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The personal experiences of those in this thread are...basically irrelevant in making any assessment, unless we hear 10,000 more stories. To get any meaningful scientific average, the number of "test cases" would have to be large enough to outweigh the other variables such as MBTI type.

Would others agree that intellectual independence (such that this thread offers) is more commonly expressed in introverts than extroverts?
Yes.
 

Night

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Are you ascribing this probability to function preference then, Jack?

The personal experiences of those in this thread are...basically irrelevant in making any assessment, unless we hear 10,000 more stories. To get any meaningful scientific average, the number of "test cases" would have to be large enough to outweigh the other variables such as MBTI type.

Agreed.

Even then, the criteria is pretty subjective. We are working with indefinite/unempirical terminology.
 

563 740

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The personal experiences of those in this thread are...basically irrelevant in making any assessment, unless we hear 10,000 more stories. To get any meaningful scientific average, the number of "test cases" would have to be large enough to outweigh the other variables such as MBTI type.

No way dude, we're not leaving this thread until this issue gets resolved. ;)

But yeah, I could honestly argue it either way - is kid one going to develop his own "set" that's going to get aped by kid two, or is kid two, having seen 3 other sets, going to go off and develop his own unique approach?

I think it was already mentioned, but I'd reckon that age difference plays a huge part. I'm only a year older than my brother and there was really never any of that "Gosh golly gee my big bro' is so grown up & cool & I wanna be just like him some day" dynamic that you get when there's like a 5 year age gap.
 

Jack Flak

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Are you ascribing this probability to function preference then, Jack?
Not necessarily, though it could be called that by others unerroneously.

Introverts are more contemplative (I hope that we can simply agree on that), and by Jung's definition, more concerned with the subject (self) than object, so higher conviction from within simply stands to reason.
 

Nocapszy

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Would others agree that intellectual independence (such that this thread offers) is more commonly expressed in introverts than extroverts?

More commonly? Maybe.
ISFs... heh... uh... usually don't even know what independent means.
I'd probably attribute it to __TP quicker than anything else.
Though that is the stain of a specific introverted function, so... kinda.

Ni would be the only trump, but often enough its pairing judgement's extraverted ties ground them too firmly to conventional metrics to really allow them to be as unbound as a Ti.
 

Jack Flak

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(I missed this)
Even then, the criteria is pretty subjective. We are working with indefinite/unempirical terminology.
Naturally. A study would be like some other socio-psychological studies without a hardcore foundation in science itself. And the results? Likely simply interesting as opposed to incredibly important.
 

Simplexity

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Thats an interesting point. I think the open endedness and the T combine to create a love for verbal sparring, which usually ends up in forming a more independent opinion. While my oldest sister(ISFJ) is very independent and assertive in her actions a lot of her values and stances on things are just derivations of things.

I think since I like to take in information from everywhere and don't like closure I end up creating a very unique to myself opinon that incorporates a lot of things, while her sources are fewer and therefore more common to what others think.
 

Thursday

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Would others agree that intellectual independence (such that this thread offers) is more commonly expressed in introverts than extroverts?

Here here, brother #2
i would venture to say the witholding of such gifts is more common among Introverts, too.
 

Dwigie

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I'm kind of easy to persuade and convince..I'm very gullible. Sometimes I question my own independence of thought ...hm..yeah I'm a middle kid, and a girl so people pounded their beliefs hard on me, but I gained some detachment from these beliefs and opinions and I feel a little less dependent.
 

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I might be clingy and adhere to tradition but I'm the most independent thinker of my 4 siblings and I'm the youngest so put that in your pipe and smoke it.
 

heart

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I had a very mixed upbrining. Until age nine I was the youngest by ten years of five children and then after that I was the only child at home. I was my parent's only child they had together. I wouldn't even know what to consider myself. Only child, baby, mascot, lol.
 

563 740

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Naturally. A study would be like some other socio-psychological studies without a hardcore foundation in science itself. And the results? Likely simply interesting as opposed to incredibly important.

Just to play :devil:'s Advocate, how the hell would one even quantify Intellectual Independence?
 
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