Birth Order and Intellectual Independence

[ajblaise]

Just to play 's Advocate, how the hell would one even quantify Intellectual Independence?

Kant on Enlightenment: He described it "simply as freedom to use one's own intelligence".

I kinda like that way of thinking about it.

 

[Jack Flak]

Just to play 's Advocate, how the hell would one even quantify Intellectual Independence?

I hesitate to even use the term, as I physically hate Freud, but "Psychoanalysis, perhaps."

 

[edcoaching]

Yeah, how would you separate out...

• I'm last of 5 but INTJ big bro is 13 years older than me, barely knew him
• The 4 big bro's couldn't have cared less about school, so any meager attempt I made was great in my parents' eyes. They left me alone, no nagging!
• My dad actually thought girls could be anything they wanted to be (a lot of my friends were still hearing "Why would we pay for college? You're just going to get married and have kids...")

In some birth order lit, since there's a five year gap between me and my next-oldest bro, I'm another firstborn.

But I'm definitely smarter than my brothers

 

[Jack Flak]

...how would you...

Defining parameters would be the least of the worries. Include age difference range, etc.

*does not take 2-3 days on the beach*

 

[FDG]

Would others agree that intellectual independence (such that this thread offers) is more commonly expressed in introverts than extroverts?

It may be, but you have to check for a ceteris paribus condition of everything else. Thus, I expect that IRL the correlation becomes extremely spurious, to the point of non recognizability.

 

[Jack Flak]

It may be, but you have to check for a ceteris paribus condition of everything else. Thus, I expect that IRL the correlation becomes extremely spurious, to the point of non recognizability.

As I believe I said though, If it's possible to isolate one variable in a large enough study by determining the true/false value in every test case, the other variables will become statistically insignificant.

For example, if I want to figure out if red cubes are heavier on average than blue cubes, I simply split the cubes into two groups and weigh every cube. If I have 10,000 cubes total, the material and size of each cube becomes insignificant on the whole. (Though I suspect I would find red and blue cubes are approximately equal in weight, statistically )

 

[febrilesasha]

I think there is definitely something to this. My situation is a bit different, as I'm the youngest of two, but my older brother has always been mentally handicapped and so in a sense I've taken on the role of the older sibling --- but it's not the same as being an actual first born child. I'm an INFP but I'm very close (almost right on) the T border.

However, birth order is something I'm extremely interested in, largely because of my own uncommon experience. One thing I've recently noticed (without even having the MBTI in mind) is that every single person I've ever seriously dated (this is 4-5 people depending on what you consider "serious") has been the first born child with younger siblings. It just so happens that intellectual independence is extremely important/necessary to me in a partner, second only to if not tied with compassion. So obviously, all have had this trait. I've noticed a few posts on introversion and birth order, so I'll note that 80% of the time they've been introverted.

 

[mlittrell]

this is a nurture thing, not a nature thing. birth order itself would not be the cause of this. my older brother is ehh debating, i would like to say im ok, and my younger sister is good if she knows what she is talking about.

 

[Anja]

tritto

O solo mio. (Me too.)

___________________________________________

I saw this in my kids. Son thought his older sister was his mom. Thought she was God, actually.

But recently my son came near death and his sister was crying and saying, "He can't die! He's my twin." I never knew she felt that way.

 

[Usehername]

I'm lucky in that I have a very close friend who grew up in a startlingly similar family situation as I did; it's great for comparisons such as these.

He and I are 3 days apart in age, and the eldest of 4 kids. Our sisters are 3 years younger, our brothers are 5 years younger, and our youngest sisters are 7 (him) and 8 (me) years younger.


He: ENFP with ENFP mom and INTJ dad.
Me: INTJ with ENFP dad and ISFJ mom.



Basically, we both agree that our younger siblings get away with more than we did at their age, and also that as our parents get more practiced, it shows with their parenting skills. We both feel we had to "work them in" yet didn't reap the benefits because it took a while for our parents to get the hang of things.

From our conversations, I had the harder time of us two considering the fact that I grew up in a household full of very xxFx types (my iNtJ being a small "t" is learned, not natural). Our youngest sisters are both xSFJs, and I don't see any correlation to sibling order regarding intellectual independence, only MBTI.

 

[GZA]

How does sibling order correlate to MBTI?



I think in my own family me and my brother are more argumentative and everything than our older sister. My brother is a freak of nature when it comes to intellectual independance -he literally knows everything. He just explores it I guess. He's the middle child.

 

[Usehername]

How does sibling order correlate to MBTI?



I think in my own family me and my brother are more argumentative and everything than our older sister. My brother is a freak of nature when it comes to intellectual independance -he literally knows everything. He just explores it I guess. He's the middle child.

I phrased it badly; I meant to say that the only differences would be attributed to individual personality rather than order of siblings (i.e. the youngest two are xSFJs and us two eldest are generally more independent-thinking MBTI types).

 

[Kaizer]

I phrased it badly; I meant to say that the only differences would be attributed to individual personality rather than order of siblings (i.e. the youngest two are xSFJs and us two eldest are generally more independent-thinking MBTI types).

I agree & further that being younger would make it more difficult for thinking types given that elder/st sibs get first/earlier dibs by default and maybe across the board too.

Amongst family members though, which type do you think has a tougher time relating to the other?

 

[animenagai]

i'm a first born, i am very intellectually independent. my sister's fantastically nuts now, but she wasn't always like that. i do believe it had a lot with wanting to be like me. she's still not intellectually dependent though. she doesn't like to think about the bigger issues.

 

[mollyowens]

I'm the eldest with one younger brother; I'm more prone to debate with my parents but also probably more concerned with what they think than he is. He doesn't care to argue about very many things but he also does his own thing without worrying much about parental reactions. I think older children feel more pressure to perform; they may chafe under it by being somewhat argumentative but that doesn't mean they don't still feel the pressure to please and achieve.

 

[Condor]

As the oldest of four, I can totally relate to the "practice kid" concept. I am completely independent, intellectually and otherwise. I left home three weeks after I graduated high school and never looked back. There wasn't anything wrong, it was simply on my list of things to do.

I wouldn't say that my actions now are a result of how my parents raised me as the eldest, but watching them struggle to take care of us instilled the desire for me to get out of their way and take care of myself. I wonder if any of the other "oldests" had those same thoughts - to "get out of the way"...

As for debating, it never served a purpose.

 

[Dali]

Older siblings don't have the cute factor so they have to try to convince parents on their level. I know I was the only one who could compel my dad to do anything. He would sometimes remark to my mom later "I don't know how she got me to let her do such-and-such, I was going to say no."

My younger siblings always come to me when they want me to convince my mum to let them do something/go somewhere.

 

[mortabunt]

I am second born, and I am much more independant. I was capable and quite of often making my own food at leasy once a week.

 

[norepinephrine]

In my family it is my brother, the youngest out of three, who is intellectualy independent. He also has the most eccentric personality. I think this had to do with him being allowed to just be because he was was the only boy.

I'm the youngest as well. And the only female.

And the black sheep. Where my two brothers were, like it or not, in competition for their roles as most athletic, smartest, etc. - I was allowed to set my own course.

As a result, I envision my mother turning over in her grave. But then she did that a lot (figuratively speaking) before she actually died.

 

[something boring]

I am a firstborn, and the opposite was true in my house. Debate usually makes me want to flee, my little sister (ENFP) loves it, and even flourishes with it. As children, I was far more likely to do what I was told without questioning it, she would pick apart every request until the task was done or no longer mattered. EVERYTHING is a debate for her.