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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    I was a middle child and arguably the most independent (oldest son) followed by my older sister.
    Older sister: introvert or extrovert? It's a bit of an aside, but introverts are already more independent on average, so it all overlaps.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Older sister: introvert or extrovert? It's a bit of an aside, but introverts are already more independent on average, so this all overlaps.
    definitely introverted, I think ISFP

    what i was insinuating was that perhaps this should be expanded to include the first born of each sex, it wouldnt make much sense for me to use her as an example.

  3. #23
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    uh... well speaking from personal experience, I'm the middle of 5 and easily the most uh... "different-thinking" in my family. My ENFP brother is very non-conventional too, but when you want someone who's totally unshockable and will say the thing that makes everyone stare, it's me you come to. And I don't do it on purpose. In fact, I'm usually trying my hardest NOT to do it!! Oh, and my relatives also often remark on how they never count on being able to persuade or convince me of anything. My aunt put it this way "he'll listen to your points and take them on board, but as to whether it'll make any difference, you just can't ever tell. sometimes he'll totally give in and accommodate you, other times he won't budge an inch, and you can never really tell what it was with him that clinched it either way."

    Of my kids, of which there are two, the oldest is very much the sheep, she'll do anything to fit in, and the youngest really couldn't give a shit, she will always just be herself and makes no apologies for it to anyone.

    My sister has 4 kids and it's the second youngest who's the most independently minded.

    So... my experience tends to say that in fact younger kids are more likely to buck against expectations based on elder siblings' performances, plus they're also less likely to HAVE so much expectation placed on them anyway, and so perhaps would feel freer to pursue unconventional avenues...
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post

    So... my experience tends to say that in fact younger kids are more likely to buck against expectations based on elder siblings' performances, plus they're also less likely to HAVE so much expectation placed on them anyway, and so perhaps would feel freer to pursue unconventional avenues...
    I think you've got a slightly different idea of what it means to be independently minded than the OP. Being different for the sake of being different is not intellectual independence.
    I don't wanna!

  5. #25
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    I would think some of it also depends on how far apart in age the siblings are and how well they get along too.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    I think you've got a slightly different idea of what it means to be independently minded than the OP. Being different for the sake of being different is not intellectual independence.
    I think you've got a slightly different idea of what I meant to what I actually meant
    I was alluding to an idea that elder siblings might feel more pressurized by expectations of them being sensible, settings examples etc, so that if they genuinely ARE independently minded they might be more likely to repress it than a younger sibling.

    edit - IOW I don't think independent mindedness has anything to do with birth order in itself, though how much a person's natural inclination that way would manifest itself externally might be affected. You can't tell by someone external behaviour alone, what processes lead to each action. For example, quite often I go along with expectations, but it's more by coincidence; I've decided for reasons of my own that this thing is what I want to do. It's just a coincidence (and added bonus, for brownie point potential useful for future leverage) if it happens to also be the thing that someone else expected/wanted/approved of me doing.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  7. #27
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    I'm a first born and I am intellectually very dependent on the size of the boobs of the person I am speaking to. My intellectual independence is a decreasing function of the aforementioned size.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    You can't tell by someone external behaviour alone, what processes lead to each action.
    Weren't you just doing that with your kids?

    You're probably right that I have a "different idea" of what you meant. I didn't get any clearer of a picture of what you were saying with your second or third explanation. For some reason the smiley didn't help either. I don't know.
    I don't wanna!

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    Weren't you just doing that with your kids?

    You're probably right that I have a "different idea" of what you are saying. I didn't get any clearer of a picture of what you were saying with your second explanation. For some reason the smiley didn't help either. I don't know.
    If you're talking 'generally' about the general population, theorizing about people you don't know well or even at all, then it's unwise to assume that external behaviour tells all you need to know about the internal process that led to it.

    However, with people you know very well, such as one's own kids, family members, closest friends etc, after a while it becomes safer to make educated guesses. It's still not conclusive though.

    Not having done any serious research into the matter, but simply throwing things from experience onto the table in the brainstorming manner which Jack seemed to be inviting in the OP, my loose hypothesis was this:

    Elder siblings are often expected to be responsible, sensible, to set examples for younger ones and tow the line. This together with younger ones tending to be seen as 'the baby' for longer often also means elder siblings receive stronger discipline and harsher punishments for stepping out of line. Being an independent thinker GENERALLY tends to mean a person spends a lot of time being misunderstood or seen as a trouble maker. I hypothesize that the pressures mentioned above which commonly fall on the shoulders of elder siblings might therefore make it less likely that they would externally manifest obvious signs of independent mindedness, should they possess it. Younger siblings however, being often freer from these heavy expectations and often more likely to have the 'symptoms' of independent mindedness, their 'little idiosyncrasies' indulged. they might therefore be more likely to externally manifest the results of their unconventional ways of thinking.

    However, this is all taking it as read that any of these hypothetical people actually are naturally independently minded in the first place, which I don't believe results itself from anything to do with birth order.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  10. #30
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    First-borns and only children ... [are different than younger siblings]
    i have adjusted your hypothesis to something more accurately reflecting reality.

    that's like calling the first person to construct a computer the only one able to or with a chance think independently in the field that ever existed and all subsequent updates, upgrades or changes were done by people of lesser ability to think on their own or innovate. your argument about one group of people relying on the judgement of another group and thus becoming unable to judge wisely/appropriately/correctly/strongly themselves just seems really silly.

    what first borns actually do is provide a standard to which further offspring are judged which says nothing about ability or performance. they have more independence in determining the standard but that's about as far as i would go in drawing conslusions of the type you are trying to draw. personality more so than birth order affects what you're talking about.
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